$4 NLHE Full Ring: Not sure if I made the correct play here.

kmixer

kmixer

Legend
Can we fold here?

poker stars $0.01/$0.02 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 1007268
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

MP2: $0.37
CO: $0.69
BTN: $3.67
SB: $0.99
BB: $1.94
UTG: $1.78
UTG+1: $2.26
UTG+2: $2.78
Hero (MP1): $3.39

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero is MP1 with A K
2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.08, 5 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.19) 2 K K (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.19) 4 (2 players)
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets $0.04, UTG+2 raises to $0.22, Hero calls $0.18

River: ($0.63) 5 (2 players)
UTG+2 bets $2.48 all in
 
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WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Bet the flop!!!

Wtf at the turn bet sizing????

River is a fold if villain is even remotely decent.

You played this hand pretty poorly. When you flop a BIG hand, just bet it. Every time. Don't think, just bet.

If the flop had been Q74 would you have bet? KJ3? A95?? So WHY O WHY wouldn't you bet KK2???
 
kmixer

kmixer

Legend
Bet the flop!!!

Wtf at the turn bet sizing????

River is a fold if villain is even remotely decent.

I wanted to bet more on the turn. I mis clicked. My turn bets are usually 1/2 - 3/4 pot here.

What can we put him on for the river. Boat? I figured either that or a total bluff but I didn't want to call off my stack if he had he boat.

Lost my stack three hands later to my QQ vs AK anyway :(
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Yeah that river shove is usually a boat that's looking to get payed by a King especially after the limp/call preflop.

So why no flop bet?
 
kmixer

kmixer

Legend
Yeah that river shove is usually a boat that's looking to get payed by a King especially after the limp/call preflop.

So why no flop bet?

I have no excuse for the no bet on the flop. I had position and I really should have.
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
22 as well and this is FR where they rep 1 combo and always have it.

I think 22 leads out turn.

Looking at how hand is played I don't think villain can put us on a King - we don't c-bet a wet board and flat an even wetter turn? Our line looks a bit like a mid pocket pair in my eyes?
 
Pascal-lf

Pascal-lf

Legend
Air, low pairs, missed flush draws and some random spazzes with trips.

After checking flop and bet/calling turn, I don't think we look strong enough to call a value overshove on the river.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
All those things are possible if he makes a PSB but when he shoves it's the nuts and he has zero kings in his limp/call range so this is a flush occasionally or a boat. He has to be shoving worse 45% of the time for this to be a call, I think you're lucky to be good 20%, even with the way the hand was played.

If villain is shoving underpairs what's he trying to get us to fold?
 
S

suomicory

Rising Star
definitly should have bet the flop it would have given you way more info by the river....so you can properly make a decision...anyways hope you play it diff next time cuz all poker lose's/wins r learning experience's gl
 
kmixer

kmixer

Legend
Thanks for the advice guys. I played the hand bad that is for sure. Certainly why I wanted advide about it. I guess the fact that I folded the river is the only (possible) good thing I did :p
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
errr this is 4nl, villain can have any king, and maybe even some other weird hands we beat, and we've underrepped our hand an insane amount, so villain's bluffing and value betting range will widen. I think anything less than snapping river as played is crazy.

Really though, just bet flop/turn/river bigger for stacks.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Also,

If villain is shoving underpairs what's he trying to get us to fold?

I just don't think this line of thought is applicable at the micros. They're not thinking "I have 66, I'm gonna see if I can fold out 77-QQ here, which he clearly has lots of the time after pot controlling the flop"...if he's an aggro-fish, he'll shove it just because you look weak, not to get a certain part of your range to fold. I've made plenty a hero call in spots like these with the reasoning that they've got the nuts or nothing, and have often been proven wrong, seeing tons of those middling hands.

Also you really don't think a 4nl unknown is going to limp-call worse kings?
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Also,



I just don't think this line of thought is applicable at the micros. They're not thinking "I have 66, I'm gonna see if I can fold out 77-QQ here, which he clearly has lots of the time after pot controlling the flop"...if he's an aggro-fish, he'll shove it just because you look weak, not to get a certain part of your range to fold. I've made plenty a hero call in spots like these with the reasoning that they've got the nuts or nothing, and have often been proven wrong, seeing tons of those middling hands.

Also you really don't think a 4nl unknown is going to limp-call worse kings?

I think you'd be amazed at how nitty preflop FR 2nl is these days. I mean if OP had some read that the guy was super loose he could but the average unknown has zero Kings in his limp/call range.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Am I being early April fooled or something? I call shenanigans.

At 200nl I get unknowns limping K9s, there's NO WAY someone has ZERO kings in his range. KQ, KJ, KTs, etc etc etc. The way we played the hand, he plays all of them for value, and we only need like KQ in his range to snap this.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
You playing FR these days?

As to the hand you might be right, the hand was butchered pretty bad. Betting the flop and turn would have made things a lot easier because the pot would be big enough to never consider folding.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Some, yeah. Last two months I've been playing like a third of my volume at fr.
 
kmixer

kmixer

Legend
errr this is 4nl, villain can have any king, and maybe even some other weird hands we beat, and we've underrepped our hand an insane amount, so villain's bluffing and value betting range will widen. I think anything less than snapping river as played is crazy.

Really though, just bet flop/turn/river bigger for stacks.

Thanks for the confirmation.

Yeah I now see big time that my lack of bet on the flop was my biggest mistake. Although (and I know I am being results oriented here but) in this hand I may have saved money had he re raised my bet flop and turn instead of just turn. I know that is the wrong attitude and trust me I have no intention of doing that. I have learned from this hand.
 
kmixer

kmixer

Legend
Also,



I just don't think this line of thought is applicable at the micros. They're not thinking "I have 66, I'm gonna see if I can fold out 77-QQ here, which he clearly has lots of the time after pot controlling the flop"...if he's an aggro-fish, he'll shove it just because you look weak, not to get a certain part of your range to fold. I've made plenty a hero call in spots like these with the reasoning that they've got the nuts or nothing, and have often been proven wrong, seeing tons of those middling hands.

Also you really don't think a 4nl unknown is going to limp-call worse kings?

This is what I have been trying to say here lately. I think the advice that comes from WVNhill and the better players are more geared towards slightly higher stakes and not too much for these lowest of the low micros. This isnt to say it isnt valuable info because someday i hope to be playhing at those slighly higher levels but I just think too much credit is given for how the average donkey is playing at 01/02. Yes this is 2nl but no choice for that when I started the hand thread here.

I think the calls are so light in this game that he might have easily had K2 or K4
 
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F

fx20736

Legend
The key to making money at 2NL is to generally bet or raise every street until you face resistance. Most villains see a check as a sign of weakness so keep betting but keep bet sizes reasonable; dry board- 1/2 pot flop and 1/3-1/2 on turn if not likely to improved villain's hand and 1/4 pot on river. On wet boards 2/3 pot on flop, 1/2 pot on turn, etc. unless villain is a true donkey and then you bet pot, pot, pot.

If you miss on the river still fire the bet anyway because sometimes they will fold on the river and sometimes they will call you and their 2nd pair beats you but showing down a missed hand will get you plenty of action when you make a monster.

Now, take the above with this grain of salt; if you are in a multi-way pot and you are OOP do not c-bet if you missed. If you are HU and OOP and miss you can c-bet if you want but if called shut down as you won't push a donkey out. It's also good to check/ fold at least 50% of the time with AK or a sm pp that didn't flop a set and then mix in some check/ raises to keep them honest.

When IP I would say the only times you usually would check behind is if you have a backdoor draw and an over card, like AsJs on a Qh9s4c board or something like that. Otherwise if you missed I would say bet 50% of the time and check behind 50% of the time. If you have at least a pair on the flop and are IP then you should bet. You are getting fat value here and want to get it all in when possible.

On the river if you are OOP and think you might have the best hand (like an overpair or TPTK) but are not sure go ahead and bet. Aside from getting some folds you also maintain some pot control as sometimes you will get called and beat but lose less than if you had checked and then called, suspecting a bluff. Just remember the best rule to follow; do not call a large river bet with a single pair unless you are pretty certain you are good. You shouldn't be in that position too often if you put enough pressure on your opponents on earlier streets.
 
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kmixer

kmixer

Legend
So he checks to me on the flop and I bet say 1/2 pot and he C/R let's say a donkey min raise. I call and he goes all in on the turn? Hand over?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
No, I never fold AK here. KT or KJ, maybe.

If this were a dry KK2r board, I definitely start considering folding hands like K9 and KT, but with the flush draw and nut trips here there's just no way we can ever fold imo. There are just too many flush draws, worse kings and random spazzes.

I think the calls are so light in this game that he might have easily had K2 or K4

Yes but if you include these hands in his range, then you include every king in his range. And if that's the case, his worse trips far outweigh his boats.
 
kmixer

kmixer

Legend
No, I never fold AK here. KT or KJ, maybe.

If this were a dry KK2r board, I definitely start considering folding hands like K9 and KT, but with the flush draw and nut trips here there's just no way we can ever fold imo. There are just too many flush draws, worse kings and random spazzes.



Yes but if you include these hands in his range, then you include every king in his range. And if that's the case, his worse trips far outweigh his boats.

Makes sense thanks.
 
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