$4 NLHE 6-max: Top pair + flush draw on flop

[Ahoy]

iPoker - €0.04 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BB: 125 BB (VPIP: 69.77, PFR: 2.94, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 172)
UTG: 64.5 BB (VPIP: 21.31, PFR: 14.75, 3Bet Preflop: 4.35, Hands: 63)
CO: 48 BB (VPIP: 89.47, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 20)
Hero (BTN): 125 BB
SB: 137.25 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Tc 9c
fold, CO raises to 2 BB, Hero calls 2 BB, fold, BB calls 1 BB

Flop : (6.5 BB, 3 players) Th 2c 6c
BB checks, CO bets 1 BB, Hero raises to 6.5 BB, BB raises to 12 BB, CO calls 11 BB, Hero raises to 123 BB, BB calls 111 BB, fold

Spoiler

Turn : (264.5 BB, 2 players) Ts

River : (264.5 BB, 2 players) 3s

Hero mucks Tc 9c (Three of a Kind, Tens)

BB shows 6d 6h (Full House, Sixes full of Tens)

BB wins 242.5 BB

In spots like these, top pair with a good draw, should I try to fastplay my hand or should I rather take the pretty cheap turn and play from there? Im not really sure. On this particular turn im probably GII anyways but in other scenarios it might be different. Hard for me to fold here ever because most of the player pool is super fishy, no problem getting it in with two overs, third pair and stuff like that.
How do you approach these hands?

 

[Matt Vaughan]

So, generally speaking, when I've got top pair and a flush draw, and I'm over 100bb deep, I'm not looking to "fastplay" in the sense of getting the money in. Because for example ATss on A64dss is great but if we put the money in we generally have to hit our flush to be good.

Now this board and action is unique because the board is rather low, and it's pretty unlikely that the villain would ever try to get it in with a random top pair imo. There are TONS of other flush draws (all of which we beat), and there aren't any available two pair combinations that make sense due to the numerical distribution of the board. (Far less likely he has two pair on T62 than say, KJ8.)

Now, sets are still out there, but only 7 combinations, assuming he doesn't 3bet TT. So I tend to weigh the guy fairly strongly toward draws and I don't mind sticking the money in. We COULD just call, but may struggle to realize all our equity if we do that. At least by getting the money in we always realize all our equity. I'm definitely fine with how you played it.

After reading spoiler: I'm definitely not shocked to see a set, but it kind is what it is. When we ARE behind, that's the most likely hand for us to lose to, rather than a super aggro-played top pair.

 

[Ahoy]

So, generally speaking, when I've got top pair and a flush draw, and I'm over 100bb deep, I'm not looking to "fastplay" in the sense of getting the money in. Because for example ATss on A64dss is great but if we put the money in we generally have to hit our flush to be good.

Now this board and action is unique because the board is rather low, and it's pretty unlikely that the villain would ever try to get it in with a random top pair imo. There are TONS of other flush draws (all of which we beat), and there aren't any available two pair combinations that make sense due to the numerical distribution of the board. (Far less likely he has two pair on T62 than say, KJ8.)

Now, sets are still out there, but only 7 combinations, assuming he doesn't 3bet TT. So I tend to weigh the guy fairly strongly toward draws and I don't mind sticking the money in. We COULD just call, but may struggle to realize all our equity if we do that. At least by getting the money in we always realize all our equity. I'm definitely fine with how you played it.

After reading spoiler: I'm definitely not shocked to see a set, but it kind is what it is. When we ARE behind, that's the most likely hand for us to lose to, rather than a super aggro-played top pair.

Hey man! Thanks for the reply.

I usually tend to fastplay flush draws with no showdown value like 65s for example, I try to play them aggressively, because I cant win at showdown without improving so I at least try to maximize the fold equity.

I gotta be honest that I didnt think about the hand deep in the real time, because I would probably just call the flop raise. The villain is an extreme fish (just look at his stats) so I am pretty sure he is happy to GII with top pair or worse, but as you said we still have to hit the flush to be good here most of the time. His flop raise screams of strength as he is usually really passive.

I think I could have put him on a hand with better immediate strength like the set he had and just played some turns and rivers if the price was good. Not to mention that he only minraised so it was really cheap to see the turn card.

With the kind of hands you mentioned, flush draws on a board where there is Villain more likely to have two pair or strong top pairs I usually slowplay as I can be pretty much sure im behind at the given moment. When I have a FD with showdown value (like this one here) I usually dont want to fastplay it because I dont have to. Top pair with a decent kicker and a flush redraw is ahead of most of V´s holdings so Im not really afraid.

BTW what do you think about check raising the turn with low flush draws (like 8 high flush draw or something) ? I kinda like this because without showdown value I tend to pull the trigger and try to push V off the hand while I still have some equity.

Thanks for the advice man I really appreciate it

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Yeah pretty much everything you said is the same as what I was trying to say, but applied to the inverse situations. Without showdown value it makes more sense to aggressively try to obtain fold equity (but of course it's dependent on your villain - if we don't have fold equity then don't bother even if we don't have showdown value).

My pleasure!

 

[Ahoy]

Yeah pretty much everything you said is the same as what I was trying to say, but applied to the inverse situations. Without showdown value it makes more sense to aggressively try to obtain fold equity (but of course it's dependent on your villain - if we don't have fold equity then don't bother even if we don't have showdown value).

My pleasure!

Hey man, so for example I have this hand:

iPoker - €0.10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 30 BB (VPIP: 22.78, PFR: 18.89, 3Bet Preflop: 7.27, Hands: 182)
SB: 136.8 BB (VPIP: 19.05, PFR: 4.76, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 21)
Hero (BB): 101.5 BB
UTG: 101.8 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 19.05, 3Bet Preflop: 12.50, Hands: 21)
MP: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 16)
CO: 107.7 BB (VPIP: 38.10, PFR: 9.52, 3Bet Preflop: 9.09, Hands: 21)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7s 8s
fold, MP raises to 2.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 9 BB, MP calls 6.5 BB

Flop : (18.5 BB, 2 players) Qs Jh 3s
Hero bets 5.5 BB, MP calls 5.5 BB

Turn : (29.5 BB, 2 players) 5h
Hero checks, MP bets 16 BB, Hero raises to 87 BB,

Spoiler

MP calls 71 BB

River : (203.5 BB, 2 players) 3h

MP shows Kh Qc (Two Pair, Queens and Threes)

Hero mucks 7s 8s (One Pair, Threes)

MP wins 186.6 BB

Is this reasonable? My thoughts:

1. I have uncapped range while he has capped range because he called preflop so I have the range advantage

2. I can check raise all in all of my overpairs here, and all of my sets or AQs with a backdoor flush draw

3. I could potentially check raise all in all my combo draws

 

[John A]

Just call the cold flop 3-bet from BB. No reason to re-raise here in position. If you had a bigger draw, where your opponents range would include some worse draws, then GIAI here is good, but not w/ a T high draw.

 

[Matt Vaughan]

Hey Ahoy, I consider those two hands to be pretty different. Most of the relevant action happens on the turn in that second hand, so you don't have 2 streets to try to hit your draw. I know you're trying to compare a spot where we have SDV vs where we don't, but I think the rest of the factors in the hand are just too different.

I get what you are saying about wanting fold equity and being able to play some value hands this way. You gotta think though, not just COULD you play value hands this way, but WOULD you? I feel like for sure you are continuing betting with KK+, you often don't have QQ and maybe not JJ here with this line either.

But in any case, when you check it to him and he almost pots it, I just find it so unlikely that we actually have much fold equity. What hands are we getting to fold? Maybe gutters? T9s if he has that? But the rest of the hands that he'd likely bet this size are not folding imo. Any Jx or similar types of hands he has that are more showdownable are probably just checking behind or betting smaller.

This is why talking in generalities in poker is so tricky. You can't really lump a bunch of spots together and make broad stroke rules of thumb necessarily.