This is a discussion on €4 NLHE 6-max: BTN vs BB , combo draw double barrel facing turn check raise within the online poker forums, in the Cash Game Hand Analysis section; Run It Once Poker, Hold'em No Limit - €0.02/€0.04 - 4 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat
UTG: €4.09 (102 bb)
BU (Hero): €4.00 (100 bb)
SB: €5.03 (126 bb)
The problem with that turn is that you could now be drawing to 1 out (the 2c for the straight flush). I think folding to the large c/r on the turn is an option. I don't think a river bluff would be a good idea.
But you did gain valuable information. What did villain end up having?
In the second barrel, the range of the villain can mainly include some Ax (3 combos). Given the size you chose on the flop, any ace can block the turn, with a deep 3bet. So many times we can bet deep on the turn, since we expect a high frequency of defense, when we induce many bluffs catchers and take advantage of an interesting equity.
The problem is that in this case, our rank is unprotected since the board is low and we are probably being dominated in odds. That is, we have implied inverse probabilities against hands like K-T; Ax; etc. Where the villain may have some clover blocker, which harms our improvement.
In addition the villain is deep and aggressive, so on the turn, a call to a 3bet pot is not in good shape, which has been defended 3 times and now subjected to another increase. Our range is good on the turn, when we expect a high fold equity of the villain. Which seems very unlikely, given the sequence presented.
Would you 3bet the turn or bluff the river ? what size would you choose?
Hello there quant1986, thank you for sharing your hand.
You said Villain is a TAG type. Is it:
A) More passive B) More aggresive
We know that TAG players elect to narrow their calling ranges from the blinds. Many times they call, they are calling for excellent implied odds. They also will have a capped range most of times, specially from the SB.
Having said that, 54s is a clear fold versus this type of players (TAGs and NITs):
Can we open a bunch of suited connectors from the BTN?
Yes, of course. We should open these hands when we have the ideal conditions.
When you open a 54s you are just putting yourself ina situation where a TAG player will call you with 64s, 74s, 85s, 95s, etc.
If the TAG player 3-bets you preflop to 3.3x, 3.5x, 4x are you inclined to defend your BTN?
I will open 32s, 43s and 54s versus a recreational player in the blinds, but I would fold to preflop aggresion. Versus a recreational that I have information that I can be bluffed postflop, otherwise, fold. This hand will not realize its equity so good and many times we would be behind when we hit two pair, trips, straights and flushes.
The Snow Ball effect and the postflop situation
The professional poker player, Nathan 'blackrain79' Williams comments a lot of times in its blog and videos about the snow ball effect, which stars preflop: having a weak preflop range will put us in very complicated scenarios.
We gotta be very serious when we are facing a TAG player, no matter if it is passive or aggresive. When we hit a flush here, most of times, a TAG player will never put chips in the table with a flush worse than yours. You are already dominated for the TAG's calling range. (It won't have worse straights either)
This is a flop where you could be checking in a higher frequency than C-betting. You cannot represent many strongs aces right now because you are in the BTN. The only reasonable explanation for a huge C-Bet as you did is that you either hit two pair or set and needs protection (A6, A3, 63, AA, 33, 66). Did you want BB to fold very much here?
People will scream and say that "omg! I have OESD+Flush Draw, I should be betting here". It is okay that you have a pretty decent equity, but a nice place to be balancing our range versus a TAG player is a flop like this, where we are going to miss our draw a couple of times and even when we hit our flush/straight, the TAG's range will be ahead of us (RIO).
You C-Bet flop polarized your range quite a bit and attentive players will notice and explore it. Are you bluffing a 100% of your OESD+FD versus all types of players? What I mean is, you are betting 100% of times all of yours OESD and FD, separated?
The turn is not a good card for our range. We have nothing in fact, but a semi-bluff, and again, since Villain checked, we could be checking to realize our equity for free.
You decided to bluff in a spot where you don't have too many values to represent (BTN vs BB, where button has a dynamic range and maybe BB has capped range, so BB's range is far away ahead of ours).
Again, you are playing exploitative game versus a regular (maybe) and you are going to miss a lot of value doing this: you make a c-bet turn a little bit more than 1/2 pot, which I don't believe it is okay because in the BTN we cannot represent too much, specially in a board like this, with so many busted draws.
When the BB check-raises turn, for such a tremendous size, I would simply fold and wait for a better opportunity. (I would not even open preflop this type of hand vs TAG's...)
This raise could only be value: if the player is a tight passive (AF under 2) almost 100% of times it is the cold nuts or a very strong value hand.
If the player in the BB is a tight aggressive (AF between 2.5 and 3) , maybe the player has some readings upon you and it is trying to bluff you. But, TAG's won't bluff you with pure air, ever. Either this TAG player has a better flush draw than you, two pair/boat with A6 or A3, or two overcards with at least one club.
After you call this huge raise and miss the river, what is your plan? Check behind river too see if 54s has showdown value? No, BB will have Ax, 3x, Qx, a bunch of broadways and overcards, so I don't see where our actions could be profitable in the long run.
Since you decided to float the turn, you should have balls and put all-in river with your missed draw. But you know that now you cannot represent anything and Villain will call you lighter than normal (precisely because of the busted draw board texture).
Try to open 87s+ versus TAGs when you are in the BTN. And Even 87s, do not open the 4 combos, open 3 combos and fold 1, open 2 combos and 3 bet light one (versus CO), open 2 combos and fold 2 combos in very NITTY or LAGGY tables, etc.
I hope it helps you.
Fine opening small suited connector from BTN
Fine C-betting this, but since the goal is mostly to get him to fold hands, that missed, maybe we can go a little smaller.
This was not a great card for us, because he is more likely to have bottom pair than us, and its never great to draw on a paired board. For that reason I lean towards checking back, even if we have no showdown value. Especially when the flop bet was so large, I dont think, he has many hands, that will fold to a second barrel.
Maybe we can get him to fold a better flushdraw, but there is also a risk, he will play back at us trying to represent trips, which is problematic, since we are even behind to his bluffs. Unfortunately this is exactly, what happen. We face a large raise, and I prefer to just fold at this point. Yes we have 15 outs, but they are not clean. We could be drawing to a straight flush, and part of his bluffing range is better flushdraws. Meaning that if the flush comes, we might be setting ourselfes up to be "coolered".
He check to us. I think, this usually mean, he was bluffing with a flushdraw, and hit on the Q. Most likely QX of clubs, but could even be QX of spades, if he made a loose float on the flop. So the question is, can we bet and get him to fold a Q? We essentially have the nut low, so if we are ever going to bluff on the river, it has to be with this hand. Yeah I think, I would go for it, but since I would have played the turn different, I would not end up in this situation.
Whilst you have a good hand in terms of raw equity, the 3 pairing is bad card for your overall range. it's much more likely to hit a bb defending range. Good players will recognise this and often check raise or lead themselves.
A better approach in these spots is to check the turn with the vast majority of your hands so that you are balanced and keep from getting exploited. It is also then very easy to get value on the river from worst hands when we do have a strong hand.
re: Poker & €4 NLHE 6-max: BTN vs BB , combo draw double barrel facing turn check raise
I would disagree the turn card is better for villain overall range s villain shouldn't have many 3x combos preflop that didn't 3bet preflop against BTN open and actually BTN can have all the 3x combos.
The value combos that villain representing should be very narrow - 33, A3,K3s, Q3s, or A6 that didn't choose to check raise the flop.
But I would agree turn calling check raise would yield more negative EV than folding or 3betting . Folding to the turn check raise should be highest frequency play. And even if we hit a flush, could lose to villain better flush as well.
Fold the turn. If a tight player continuess on that flop, and
that type of card rolls off it's not a good spot to continue bluffing. If you do keep barrelling, hat a plan to deal with it. Ie bet fold.
I like barrelling card that improve the actual equity, or the perceived equity of my range. If a card doesn't change anything, I like to check back.
Pretty much this. The three is not a great card. He could have a boat by now and also some straight outs now might be counterfeited. Whether I would call the turn to then bet river in case I improve depends on how likely I think he is to pay out on the river if I hit.
Turn bet/fold or just checking seems better than bet/calling because you will brick so many rivers and have reverse implied odds vs better flush draws.
As played on the river we have 0% showdown equity, we now lose to 78s on showdown, so the question becomes can we make some of our opponents range fold and what should be our sizing?
I believe villain will never fold a 3x hand and rarely Ax hands, they can however find a fold with busted flush/straight draws who were semibluffing on the turn.
So a bet of 25-30% pot will accomplish pretty much the same as an all in bet.