€4 NLHE 6-max: 3bet squeeze defence IP

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quant1986

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Run It Once Poker, Hold'em No Limit - €0.02/€0.04 - 5 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: €4.99 (125 bb)
CO: €2.96 (74 bb)
BU (Hero): €11.04 (276 bb)
SB: €4.96 (124 bb)
BB: €4.06 (102 bb)

Pre-Flop: (€0.06) Hero is BTN with Q A
UTG raises to €0.12, 1 fold, Hero calls €0.12, 1 fold, BB 3-bets to €0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls €0.38

Flop: (€1.14) 6 J 5 (2 players)
BB bets €0.35, Hero calls €0.35

Turn: (€1.84) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (€1.84) 7 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets €1.15, BB raises to €3.21 (all-in), BU (Hero) folds

How would you play this hand? Villain is playing like VPIP/PFR/3bet, 30/25/15 in 70 hands
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Yea he's 3 betting super wide. What are UTG stats? Does he discriminate who and what position he 3 bets against? 70 hands isn't a lot but it looks like enough 3 bets that we may be able to get a little bit of a read. I'm definitely calling pre. We kind of capped our range when we flatted the UTG raise so I think 4 betting pre looks fishy. Our line looks suspect again when we check back turn with flush and straight draws on board then fall in love with a 7 on the river. What are we repping? I think we have to check back river or take the lead on the turn then still probably check back river. If we get x/r on the turn I'm also folding.
 
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quant1986

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Yea he's 3 betting super wide. What are UTG stats? Does he discriminate who and what position he 3 bets against? 70 hands isn't a lot but it looks like enough 3 bets that we may be able to get a little bit of a read. I'm definitely calling pre. We kind of capped our range when we flatted the UTG raise so I think 4 betting pre looks fishy. Our line looks suspect again when we check back turn with flush and straight draws on board then fall in love with a 7 on the river. What are we repping? I think we have to check back river or take the lead on the turn then still probably check back river. If we get x/r on the turn I'm also folding.

I think I will play some AJs the same way , can get called by TT-88 or even sticky AK/AQ. In this case I am targeting AK to fold
 
Aballinamion

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How often should we be calling with AQs in position?

Run It Once Poker, Hold'em No Limit - €0.02/€0.04 - 5 players
Hand delivered by CardsChat

UTG: €4.99 (125 bb)
CO: €2.96 (74 bb)
BU (Hero): €11.04 (276 bb)
SB: €4.96 (124 bb)
BB: €4.06 (102 bb)

Pre-Flop: (€0.06) Hero is BTN with Q A
UTG raises to €0.12, 1 fold, Hero calls €0.12, 1 fold, BB 3-bets to €0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls €0.38

Flop: (€1.14) 6 J 5 (2 players)
BB bets €0.35, Hero calls €0.35

Turn: (€1.84) 3 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

River: (€1.84) 7 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets €1.15, BB raises to €3.21 (all-in), BU (Hero) folds

How would you play this hand? Villain is playing like VPIP/PFR/3bet, 30/25/15 in 70 hands

Hello there quant1986, thank you for sharing your hand with us. Very good hand!
Without further duo, I will say right off the bat that I really don't love flating AQs from the BTN. Specially versus UTG.
If the player in the CO raises and I see there is one or two recreational players at the blinds, than I would THINK before calling, because I don't think AQs will play very well, even in position versus unkown ranges. If the player doesn't fold very much too 3-bet it is a 3-bet 100% of times, for value. Yes.
If the player in the UTG is opening wildly such as 18%, 20%, 25%, maybe your call it is okay. You gotta have information of what SB and BB are going to do after you flat.
IMO, we will get preflop 4 combos of AQs. As a personal rule of thumb, I will be 3betting 3 combos and calling 1, at maximum.
Then, the Big Blind player Squeezes versus UTG and BTN. Okay, we gotta stop here a second and take a breath: how does AQs will play postflop in a Squeezed pot? What if UTG calls? Can we call? If UTG calls, and we call and we miss the flop completely or comes a Tx, Jx, Kx, how can we play our hand?
I believe BB doesn't have too many bluffs in its range when it decides to Squeeze versus UTG. BB doesn't know if UTG is going to call or 4-bet and BB doesn't know about the Button either. Do you see many wild players Squeezing out of position versus UTG for bluff, when, for odds, it is much better for the BB to call with a medium-strong hand because of the odds? Squeezing from the BB remove the odds the BB had preflop for calling and now put the BB in a very dangerous spot. I don't see many bluffs here.
Perhaps if the BB was Squeezing versus CO and BTN, I could maybe agree with your call here.
What if we UTG folds, and we call and we hit TP2K, are we happy if Villain Big Blind makes a bet bigger than 1/3 pot? Are we ready to stack off right here, in the name of the lord? :cool:
You don't have enough volume of hands for taking any definitive conclusion about Villain.
One thing the population of CardsChat will agree (I hope) with me: micro-stakes players are dumb-dull-jerks when it comes to fold equity. They are not folding Ace high sometimes, if they believe you are bluffing.
These stats you gave are not enough for a bluff river. We should know how often % this particular player 3bet/Squeeze out of position, and we must have at least 1000 hands for taking any conclusion about 3-bet or Squeezes.
When you bet river Villain has all the combos of JJ, AJ, AA, KK and QQ, and you in the Button will have NONE of these combos, because you would never played like this, except, maybe if you in the BTN had AJs.
When you bet the river you are trying to represent a decent hand, which you don't have: If you really had AA, KK or even AKs would you be flatting versus a Squeezor from the Big Blind which you consider "spewy"? Would you be checking turn for "pot control" and sending a bullet in the river?
Does this spewy player knows what do you know? And if the spewy player knows, can it exploit you to the bones? Yes, she/he can, and she/he will!
It's a non-sense line: you called 1/3 pot flop, and AJ would never be doing it, because AJ could be raising right here for value and protection.:icon_clow
Pocket JJ also would never be calling 1/3 pot in the flop, unless you had one Jack of clubs, even so it would be much better to be raising this if you don't have a blocker of clubs, because your set also needs protection. You can never have the blocker of clubs because the jack of clubs is in the flop, which reduces a little your combinations. So...
Perhaps, you want to represent low pairs that could be cold calling versus UTG raisor and then Cold Calling Squeeze: wild players elect to call Squeezes or even mini-4bet pots with pocket pairs such as 66 and 55, so don't try to represent those, you wouldn't have too much and if you had I believe you would be raising for the same reasons AJ (with the ace of clubs maybe), and JJ could and should be raising this 1/3 pot bet in the flop.
AQ suited without any backdoors, without any pair, it is a very easy fold. AQs is very weak in a board like this, we have nothing but bluffs, we have double bluffs, because we called a raisor from UTG and called Squeeze.
If you really believed the BB player was a maniac you should be 4-betting AQs FOR VALUE, for pure value, in the case, of course the BB maniac is 3-betting/Squeezing too much.
Nonetheless, I believe your prior mistake was to cold call versus UTG. AQs is very dominated by UTG's range and will not have a good playability postflop. So if we decide to 3-bet AQs versus UTG, we can represent and have initiative in a lot of board where AQs in position will destroy playing a 4-bet pot.
When you 4-bet there is a really small chance of some crazy nitty to told AK, AJ, AT, 77 and under, etc at the micros is hard, but it is a nice pot if UTG folds, rake free, let's consider a lot of facts before taking wild lines because we have "AQs, AKs, AA, etc".
We are not playing hands: we are playing our adversaries in the first place.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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quant1986

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Hello there quant1986, thank you for sharing your hand with us. Very good hand!
Without further duo, I will say right off the bat that I really don't love flating AQs from the BTN. Specially versus UTG.
If the player in the CO raises and I see there is one or two recreational players at the blinds, than I would THINK before calling, because I don't think AQs will play very well, even in position versus unkown ranges. If the player doesn't fold very much too 3-bet it is a 3-bet 100% of times, for value. Yes.
If the player in the UTG is opening wildly such as 18%, 20%, 25%, maybe your call it is okay. You gotta have information of what SB and BB are going to do after you flat.
IMO, we will get preflop 4 combos of AQs. As a personal rule of thumb, I will be 3betting 3 combos and calling 1, at maximum.
Then, the Big Blind player Squeezes versus UTG and BTN. Okay, we gotta stop here a second and take a breath: how does AQs will play postflop in a Squeezed pot? What if UTG calls? Can we call? If UTG calls, and we call and we miss the flop completely or comes a Tx, Jx, Kx, how can we play our hand?
I believe BB doesn't have too many bluffs in its range when it decides to Squeeze versus UTG. BB doesn't know if UTG is going to call or 4-bet and BB doesn't know about the Button either. Do you see many wild players Squeezing out of position versus UTG for bluff, when, for odds, it is much better for the BB to call with a medium-strong hand because of the odds? Squeezing from the BB remove the odds the BB had preflop for calling and now put the BB in a very dangerous spot. I don't see many bluffs here.
Perhaps if the BB was Squeezing versus CO and BTN, I could maybe agree with your call here.
What if we UTG folds, and we call and we hit TP2K, are we happy if Villain Big Blind makes a bet bigger than 1/3 pot? Are we ready to stack off right here, in the name of the lord? :cool:
You don't have enough volume of hands for taking any definitive conclusion about Villain.
One thing the population of CardsChat will agree (I hope) with me: micro-stakes players are dumb-dull-jerks when it comes to fold equity. They are not folding Ace high sometimes, if they believe you are bluffing.
These stats you gave are not enough for a bluff river. We should know how often % this particular player 3bet/Squeeze out of position, and we must have at least 1000 hands for taking any conclusion about 3-bet or Squeezes.
When you bet river Villain has all the combos of JJ, AJ, AA, KK and QQ, and you in the Button will have NONE of these combos, because you would never played like this, except, maybe if you in the BTN had AJs.
When you bet the river you are trying to represent a decent hand, which you don't have: If you really had AA, KK or even AKs would you be flatting versus a Squeezor from the Big Blind which you consider "spewy"? Would you be checking turn for "pot control" and sending a bullet in the river?
Does this spewy player knows what do you know? And if the spewy player knows, can it exploit you to the bones? Yes, she/he can, and she/he will!
It's a non-sense line: you called 1/3 pot flop, and AJ would never be doing it, because AJ could be raising right here for value and protection.:icon_clow
Pocket JJ also would never be calling 1/3 pot in the flop, unless you had one Jack of clubs, even so it would be much better to be raising this if you don't have a blocker of clubs, because your set also needs protection. You can never have the blocker of clubs because the jack of clubs is in the flop, which reduces a little your combinations. So...
Perhaps, you want to represent low pairs that could be cold calling versus UTG raisor and then Cold Calling Squeeze: wild players elect to call Squeezes or even mini-4bet pots with pocket pairs such as 66 and 55, so don't try to represent those, you wouldn't have too much and if you had I believe you would be raising for the same reasons AJ (with the ace of clubs maybe), and JJ could and should be raising this 1/3 pot bet in the flop.
AQ suited without any backdoors, without any pair, it is a very easy fold. AQs is very weak in a board like this, we have nothing but bluffs, we have double bluffs, because we called a raisor from UTG and called Squeeze.
If you really believed the BB player was a maniac you should be 4-betting AQs FOR VALUE, for pure value, in the case, of course the BB maniac is 3-betting/Squeezing too much.
Nonetheless, I believe your prior mistake was to cold call versus UTG. AQs is very dominated by UTG's range and will not have a good playability postflop. So if we decide to 3-bet AQs versus UTG, we can represent and have initiative in a lot of board where AQs in position will destroy playing a 4-bet pot.
When you 4-bet there is a really small chance of some crazy nitty to told AK, AJ, AT, 77 and under, etc at the micros is hard, but it is a nice pot if UTG folds, rake free, let's consider a lot of facts before taking wild lines because we have "AQs, AKs, AA, etc".
We are not playing hands: we are playing our adversaries in the first place.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
AQs is a very good calling hand BTN vs LJ(13%) open, and strong enough to defend SB/BB squeeze. I don't want 3bet fold this combo against UTG 4bet range and would be more inclined to 3bet-fold ATs or AJs. And many preflop charts would advise flatting AQs at high frequency. With AJs - i wouldn't raise on the flop as 3bettor range still very much uncapped
 
WVHillbilly

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I don't understand the river bet? I think you beat everything he folds.
 
Aballinamion

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Some scenarios to observe

AQs is a very good calling hand BTN vs LJ(13%) open, and strong enough to defend SB/BB squeeze. I don't want 3bet fold this combo against UTG 4bet range and would be more inclined to 3bet-fold ATs or AJs. And many preflop charts would advise flatting AQs at high frequency. With AJs - i wouldn't raise on the flop as 3bettor range still very much uncapped

Sorry buddy I am just trying to help us out here. I am not perfect and I have a personal gameplan. You have the right to have other. I will not discuss any longer your cold calling versus UTG, I will focus versus BB's Squeeze okay? (I didn't say it is wrong to cold call, I just said that I will be inclined to be 3-betting in a higher frequency than calling. But I can also call here, no problem)
Again, no intention of acting rude, but I also don't use any preflop charts, because they don't make any sense. If you want to talk more about preflop chars and why I don't use them, please do not hesitate to post here in this thread or send me a PM, it will be my pleasure to talk about it. :D
So, what preflop charts don't give you at all is information about the villain. Because we can easily have AA preflop, and we are playing 100% of times, but, when we are 4handed with AA are we happy? Or when we have AA and we are facing a completely unknown opponent are we laughing?
That being said, we must respect our opponents actions at at cash table. In spite of BB's Villain has a large VPIP and PFR and 3-bet preflop, we cannot take these informations/statistics as the sole truth of the universe and play accordingly to the HUD software (only).
I respect the BB Squeeze versus UTG a lot. If BB was squeezing versus MP or CO I would respect a little bit less, but even so we must consider why a player with VPIP 30 decided to bluff a medium-weak hand, a medium-strong hand or even a strong hand itself when it is much more profitable for the BB to call and see a flop versus a player who will have a lot of strongs hands (UTG) and other with a lot of bluffs (BTN), and try to hit a monster and charge a lot from UTG's AA, KK, AK's and extract even more from the BTN draws and semi-bluffs and second best value hands.
I am not saying that what you doing is wrong: there is no right and wrong about poker: if you are starting to play the game now, or don't feel confident enough to create your own ranges x position, it is better to use preflop charts as a simple model. In the end, we gotta learn which range suits our style of playing best. We must find a range that works for our game and our game only!
Without generating a huge long term text lemme try some example using Equilab to calculate the odds and flops for 12 different scenarios where you Cold Call Squeeze in Position versus BB.
I will assume BB has a strong range when it does squeeze, so I will put in BB's Squeezing UTG/BTN range (only):

JJ+,AKs,AKo (5%)

Preflop relative equities:

AQs has 32% of equity and,
BB has 67% of equity

So, I go to equilab/tools/equity calculator and put user defined range, which is JJ+,AKs,AKo (BB's Squeezing range x UTG) to generate some scenarios

Flop Scenarios:

1) 6d6hJh our equity with AdQd = 16.6%
2) Js3d3h our equity with AdQd = 17.1%
3) Qs2s2c our equity with AdQd = 59%
4) KcJdKd our equity with AdQd = 33%
5) Ac4h5d our equity with AdQd = 63%
6) 7d4s2d our equity with AdQd = 46%
7) Jh9s7c our equity with AdQd = 12%
8) Qs4dAh our equity with AdQd = 81%
9) Kc3h3s our equity with AdQd = 9%
10) 9cAs5d our equity with AdQd = 63%
11) 5sTcAs our equity with AdQd = 60%
12) 3s6hKs our equity with AdQd = 8%

It is easy to observe that in a little sample of flops like this, our AQs will have equities between 8% and 81%! It seems beautiful when we hit TP2K because it seems we really have around 60% equity, but even so we will be crushed for AK 40% of times, and, considering that we are playing micro-stakes, breakeven situations are usually less EV (due to the high rake).
When we call here, the best situation is when we flop a two pair or a trips (80-95% equity) because when we have two pair, we are virtually only losing for AA and QQ (20% of times).
This exercise is not the true as well! BB could have AJs, AJo, AT, and a couple of bluffs its Squeezing range, but we are not sure! How do we play when we are not sure about the range of our villain and what can it do postflop? Does the preflop chart helped you at all with the gameplan of this specific hand you played?
Maybe I am totally wrong and BB had AT, A9, a pocket pair but even so those hands would be beating your bluff in the river...

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 

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quant1986

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I don't understand the river bet? I think you beat everything he folds.

It is targeting passively played AK/AQ only. Don't expect villain to fold TT-99.
Possibly not good river bet if villain has A4s-A5s in squeeze range.
AK I would have checked down the river but probably not in my default preflop BTN vs LJ flatting range.
 
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Check back river. Betting doesn't really show any strength, so is not a convincing bluff. Your better off showing down and realizing your equity.
 
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I think I will play some AJs the same way , can get called by TT-88 or even sticky AK/AQ. In this case I am targeting AK to fold
Why would you check back AJ on the turn? Plug that in the solver and see how often we should be checking. Also we are blocking the hands we are targeting with the river bet. Seems much to thin. 21 combos of AK and AQ, and we chop AQ anyway so is it worth the risk of targeting that when we can get raised? You've conceeded that you don't expect folds from 88-TT, that's already 18 combos. Add a few more like A7cc, 89cc, 67, and the suited wheel aces you mentioned and there are still more value combos than better hands that we can get to fold. I still think the biggest issue is trying to rep Jx or better after checking back turn.
 
Aballinamion

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Why would you check back AJ on the turn? Plug that in the solver and see how often we should be checking. Also we are blocking the hands we are targeting with the river bet. Seems much to thin. 21 combos of AK and AQ, and we chop AQ anyway so is it worth the risk of targeting that when we can get raised? You've conceeded that you don't expect folds from 88-TT, that's already 18 combos. Add a few more like A7cc, 89cc, 67, and the suited wheel aces you mentioned and there are still more value combos than better hands that we can get to fold. I still think the biggest issue is trying to rep Jx or better after checking back turn.

Hello c0rnBr34d, good evening. Thank you for your interest and replies. I really would like to know which range you are assigning to the BB Squeezor. I am not trying to be smart here, I am just trying to evaluate my way of thinking and maybe realize that BB's Squeeze could have a lot of hands, much more than just 5%.
If we assume that a weak aggressive player from the BB is Squeezing UTG with A7s, 98s, 76s and medium pairs that are mostly dominated by UTG, such as 88-TT what can we expect?
15% Squeezing range? 20%?

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

PS: Do you believe I am tripping far away with my previous analysis, where I put 12 possible flops?
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Hello c0rnBr34d, good evening. Thank you for your interest and replies. I really would like to know which range you are assigning to the BB Squeezor. I am not trying to be smart here, I am just trying to evaluate my way of thinking and maybe realize that BB's Squeeze could have a lot of hands, much more than just 5%.
If we assume that a weak aggressive player from the BB is Squeezing UTG with A7s, 98s, 76s and medium pairs that are mostly dominated by UTG, such as 88-TT what can we expect?
15% Squeezing range? 20%?

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

PS: Do you believe I am tripping far away with my previous analysis, where I put 12 possible flops?
As we build hand history to 1k or 2k hands I would expect the 3 bet percentage to eventually represent a percentage of hands. With only 70 hands it's tough but this guy is either running really hot or he's 3 betting really wide. If he's 3 betting 15% of his range then there will be hands as weak as A9o, A4s, KTo, QTo, maybe some combos of 66 since we block some value combos with our AQs. Even if he's running a bit hot and only 3 betting 10% of hands with our blockers he still has ATo, A8s, K9s, 77, KJo in his range. That's why I like flatting the AQs here since we want to keep him wide and we still have a range advantage and position. If he has suited connectors as small as 76s then he's probably 3 betting over 30%.
 
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Why would you check back AJ on the turn? Plug that in the solver and see how often we should be checking. Also we are blocking the hands we are targeting with the river bet. Seems much to thin. 21 combos of AK and AQ, and we chop AQ anyway so is it worth the risk of targeting that when we can get raised? You've conceeded that you don't expect folds from 88-TT, that's already 18 combos. Add a few more like A7cc, 89cc, 67, and the suited wheel aces you mentioned and there are still more value combos than better hands that we can get to fold. I still think the biggest issue is trying to rep Jx or better after checking back turn.


I have tried various runs with below ranges, and set BB cbet 100% with 33% pot size (which he shouldn't as IP range should be very condensed)

BB range [JJ+,AJs+,AQo+,KQs]
BTN range [JJ,TT,AQs,0.25*AJs]

- River bet with AQs will yield higher EV than checking river. And actually villain should call with some AK combos when facing river bet
- If I remove AQo from villain range, EV from betting/checking AdQd or AcQc on the river are indifferent . AsQs, AhQh would yield higher EV.
- IP should fold AdQd to flop cbet at low frequency as well even with backdoor
- IP does not bet AJs 100% on the turn as villain should check overpairs at high frequency on the turn.

Looks like my line is fine based on solver.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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I have tried various runs with below ranges, and set BB cbet 100% with 33% pot size (which he shouldn't as IP range should be very condensed)

BB range [JJ+,AJs+,AQo+,KQs]
BTN range [JJ,TT,AQs,0.25*AJs]

- River bet with AQs will yield higher EV than checking river. And actually villain should call with some AK combos when facing river bet
- If I remove AQo from villain range, EV from betting/checking AdQd or AcQc on the river are indifferent . AsQs, AhQh would yield higher EV.
- IP should fold AdQd to flop cbet at low frequency as well even with backdoor
- IP does not bet AJs 100% on the turn as villain should check overpairs at high frequency on the turn.

Looks like my line is fine based on solver.
Interesting. I think all the outputs may change based on ranges though. Why do we think BB 3 bet range is only top 3% of hands when his 3 bet frequency is 15%??? This seems way off. Also, you mention AJ is less than 100% betting freq on the turn which makes sense vs a tight range but I'm curious what percentage it suggests even against your input ranges.
 
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