$3/6 Razz hand

Bombjack

Bombjack

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Fold / raise / call? Why?

full tilt poker Game #3044033676: Table Fulton - $3/$6 Ante $0.50 - Limit Razz - 10:15:10 ET - 2007/07/24
Seat 2: Clerkenwell ($134)
Seat 3: Budsara ($181)
Seat 4: Ottawa_Boy27 ($32)
Seat 5: snowjoke ($53)
Seat 6: Cash Money 79 ($159)
Ottawa_Boy27 antes $0.50
Cash Money 79 antes $0.50
snowjoke antes $0.50
Clerkenwell antes $0.50
5 seconds left to act
Budsara antes $0.50
*** 3RD STREET ***
Dealt to Clerkenwell 7♥
Dealt to Budsara Q♠
Dealt to Ottawa_Boy27 3♦
Dealt to snowjoke [4♦ 6♥] A♦
Dealt to Cash Money 79 5♠
Budsara is high with Q♠
Budsara brings in for $1
Ottawa_Boy27 folds
snowjoke calls $1
Cash Money 79 completes it to $3
Clerkenwell folds
Budsara folds
snowjoke calls $2
*** 4TH STREET ***
Dealt to snowjoke [4♦ 6♥ A♦] 8♦
Dealt to Cash Money 79 [5♠] K♥
snowjoke bets $3
Cash Money 79 calls $3
*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to snowjoke [4♦ 6♥ A♦ 8♦] K♦
Dealt to Cash Money 79 [5♠ K♥] A♣
Cash Money 79 bets $6
snowjoke...
 
S

shallow33

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im not too good of a razz player, but i do ok in horse. i could imagine an excuse for pretty much any move in this situation.

personally i would probably just call, since he didnt raise after he hit the king telling us he probably doesnt have two wheel cards. but i would assume he has worse, he could even have another ace under there and just be bluffing with 5-A up (i dont know how common bluffs are in razz).

i have to think he has at least one hole card on the wheel which already puts us behind compared to our lowest 3. the danger is his other hole card, if its a blank we're almost sure to out draw him with only 2 cards to go, if not its a crap shoot. and then theres the off chance that he's holding a monster(do those exist in razz?) like 3-4, 2-3, 2-4 and was just a little hesitant when he hit a king(at these stakes i would think he would be better than that).

i dont know how to properly play razz, but if i was villain with something like 3-Q hole cards, i would probably raise when you hit the king even though hero would have a better chance of making the winning hand. then again, i dont know if i would have called $3 when i hit the king.

so, my uneducated conclusion says that the odds are that we have the best hand but we call instead of raise on the off chance that we are in fact beat. we dont have much to gain from a raise, if he has us beat he'll either re-raise seeing our king, but even if he doesnt have us beat he may call just because of our king.

probably not a very good analysis, but this thread deserves a post, and i'm also curious as to the right move in these situations.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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Fold / raise / call? Why?


*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to snowjoke [4♦ 6♥ A♦ 8♦] K♦
Dealt to Cash Money 79 [5♠ K♥] A♣
Cash Money 79 bets $6
snowjoke...


just calling here is the best play.

as it stands right now he has the better draw, you are drawing to a 8-6 and he could be drawing a lot better then that. BUT I think folding here would be very week, he could be just betting because you hit a King but he also has one showing so it is a very aggressive play by him. I dont think you are getting him off a hand if he is willing to bet a king showing as his door. Unlike other poster I think it is VERY VERY likely this guy has 2 wheel cards, I would call and fold next street if I did not improve.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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he could even have another ace under there and just be bluffing with 5-A up (i dont know how common bluffs are in razz).


i dont know how to properly play razz, but if i was villain with something like 3-Q hole cards, i would probably raise when you hit the king even though hero would have a better chance of making the winning hand.
Razz is all about bluffs, but i dont think opponent has poor hole cards. Firstly he raised pre-flop with opponents showing an Ace and a 7, and secondly (and more importantly) he called a bet when he's got a King on 4th street. That implies he's got 3 playable cards. The Ace on 5th could have paired (though Bombjack has got an Ace too), and any astute razz player would make a $6 bet here if it did, but chances are Bombjack's behind here. I'd call, and see another card. I wouldn't consider raising, i'd want to keep this pot as small as possible now.
 
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shallow33

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hmm i see now i am indeed as bad at razz as i thought.
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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I think calling is reasonable although I would definitely fold to a nit. Raising is horrible unless the guy is incredibly weak.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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I know people do bluff in Razz, but probably not all the time - for the sake of argument if we assume he's not bluffing, is it still an automatic call?
 
stormswa

stormswa

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I know people do bluff in Razz, but probably not all the time - for the sake of argument if we assume he's not bluffing, is it still an automatic call?

yes, I think your draw is very reasonable to call on, even if he has hidden cards better then yours there are a lot of cards that would make you a better hand right now. You have hit a terrible 5th street and he knows this which is why he is betting here, Im calling this 100% of the time just on the draw. There are tons of cards that improve you hand here, it would be different if he was showing all low cards but he is showing a K just like you, although you may be behind I think you have to call and see what 6th brings.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to snowjoke [[4d] [6h] [Ad] [8d]] [Kd]
Dealt to Cash Money 79 [[5s] [Kh]] [Ac]
Cash Money 79 bets $6
snowjoke calls $6
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to snowjoke [[4d] [6h] [Ad] [8d] [Kd]] [9c]
Dealt to Cash Money 79 [[5s] [Kh] [Ac]] [9h]
Cash Money 79 has 15 seconds left to act
Cash Money 79 bets $6
snowjoke...
 
stormswa

stormswa

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*** 5TH STREET ***
Dealt to snowjoke [4♦ 6♥ A♦ 8♦] K♦
Dealt to Cash Money 79 [5♠ K♥] A♣
Cash Money 79 bets $6
snowjoke calls $6
*** 6TH STREET ***
Dealt to snowjoke [4♦ 6♥ A♦ 8♦ K♦] 9♣
Dealt to Cash Money 79 [5♠ K♥ A♣] 9♥
Cash Money 79 has 15 seconds left to act
Cash Money 79 bets $6
snowjoke...


I think I would let it go now bombjack even though I think you are going to show us a hand where you called down and won. I think we are just too far behind here and are drawing to a 2 or 3.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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Actually I did win the hand but only because I hit a lucky 2 on the river and he hit another K. He had 6 3 in the hole so I was drawing dead to a 2. In retrospect I think it was a fold on 5th.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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I think I would let it go now bombjack even though I think you are going to show us a hand where you called down and won. I think we are just too far behind here and are drawing to a 2 or 3.

Actually I did win the hand but only because I hit a lucky 2 on the river and he hit another K. He had 6 3 in the hole so I was drawing dead to a 2. In retrospect I think it was a fold on 5th.

I rock
 
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