25NLFR, flush on 2pair board facing rivers shove

P

phatjose

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Oct 2, 2007
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Stacks:
* BB with $2.95
* UTG with $16.05
* UTG+1 with $7.25
* MP1 with $41.15
* MP2 with $23.35
* CO with $13.20
* BTN with $29.00
* SB with $33.70

hand.pl


hand.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: pokerstars
* * Dealt to BTN:K♣ A♣
* * Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
* * 3 players fold.
* * MP2 calls [$0.25]
* * CO raises $1.50 to $1.75
* * Hero calls [$1.75]
* * 3 players folded.
* * Total folds this street: 6
* * Potsize: $4.1
Flop:
* * 10♣ J♣ 8♣
* * CO bets [$1.25]
* * 3 players fold.
* * Hero calls [$1.25]
* * Potsize: $6.6
Turn:
* * 8♠
* * CO bets [$1.50]
* * Hero calls [$1.50]
* * Potsize: $9.6
River:
* * 10♦
* * CO bets [$8.70] [ all-in ]

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Villain is 31/8/3 over 61 hands. In a past hand, I watched him overbet a blank turn with middle two pair. Initial read was a high PP based on his larger than normal preflop raise. Hence my cold calls on flop and river. Stick to my read and call this? Figure his range is pretty polarized to either bluffs or FH at this point.
 
Dwilius

Dwilius

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You didn't think you could get his chips in earlier if you put him on high pp? Easy call, no reason to think T or 8 and unless he underbet top set on flush board you've won. Not big enough bet to worry about it.
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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Well you got yourself into this with the passive play. Why oh why after the board paired on the turn you didn't bet and if you put him on QQ+ I think you missed value by not raising the flop. As played here with the range you put him on you have to call.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Let us pray:

Dear Sweet Jesus, I'm prayin' for Phatjose's raise button. Its obviously broken, since he didn't put a raise in on any street. Help him fix his raise button so that someday, he may be able to get value out of his monster hands. Because not raising on any street, and letting scare cards come out & slow down your action just makes all poker players cry a little inside.

Can I get an amen?
 
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phatjose

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Ok so to everyone saying raise raise raise, what hands do we get action out of if we pop it up to $5-6 on the flop? Given that the villain seems weak tight and isn't comfortable betting unless he feels he has the best hand, what hands could he have that still play back at us? JJ obv, and QQ with the Qc, but will AA and KK stack here given that they have no redraw on a draw heavy board?

At 25NL, most people erroneously assume that with a 3 flush board, someone will have the flush. My goal was to get his entire stack. If the turn and river blank, which happens much more often than the board pairing twice, then he hangs himself. I'm not saying I played this hand great (obviously since I posted it), but I'm not altogether convinced that raising is the best play either.
 
Dwilius

Dwilius

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one more club kills your hand. Do you think he folds big pair with shortstack. Flush draw raises the weak flop bet
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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I play this same level and I would raise his flop bet almost always. Most people actually assume you DON'T have the flush when you raise on a monotone flop like this. They're much more likely to think you're semi-bluffing and are very willing to stack off with an over pair.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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chuuuch raise it up PLEASE

As played I'm not giving you advice because the problem isn't the river, it's your earlier street play. I repop pf, bet flop. As played pf, I raise flop. As played pf/flop, I raise turn.

RAIISEEEE
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Ok so to everyone saying raise raise raise, what hands do we get action out of if we pop it up to $5-6 on the flop? Given that the villain seems weak tight and isn't comfortable betting unless he feels he has the best hand, what hands could he have that still play back at us? JJ obv, and QQ with the Qc, but will AA and KK stack here given that they have no redraw on a draw heavy board?

At 25NL, most people erroneously assume that with a 3 flush board, someone will have the flush. My goal was to get his entire stack. If the turn and river blank, which happens much more often than the board pairing twice, then he hangs himself. I'm not saying I played this hand great (obviously since I posted it), but I'm not altogether convinced that raising is the best play either.

Yeah, you're right. Waiting until the board double pairs, or pulling a beluga is much better.

Raise because you're ahead of your opponent's range, because he will call with worse hands, because you don't want to see an action killer, and because you don't want to get outdrawn.

Really nothing else to add.
 
icemonkey9

icemonkey9

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The river with giveth and the river with taketh. So sayeth runner-runner board pairs against your flush.
 
TheNoob

TheNoob

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#1 reason to raise the flop IMO


As the rookie player chimes in meekly .....

I perceive this as one of the biggest problems with my game ...... giving away cards with improper betting that end up beating me.
 
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viking999

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Ok so to everyone saying raise raise raise, what hands do we get action out of if we pop it up to $5-6 on the flop? Given that the villain seems weak tight and isn't comfortable betting unless he feels he has the best hand, what hands could he have that still play back at us? JJ obv, and QQ with the Qc, but will AA and KK stack here given that they have no redraw on a draw heavy board?

At 25NL, most people erroneously assume that with a 3 flush board, someone will have the flush. My goal was to get his entire stack. If the turn and river blank, which happens much more often than the board pairing twice, then he hangs himself. I'm not saying I played this hand great (obviously since I posted it), but I'm not altogether convinced that raising is the best play either.

If your goal is to get his entire stack in the pot, the best play is to let him hit a full house and then do it.

I'm not even entirely sarcastic when I say that. This seems like one of those spots where you only get all the chips if he has a monster on the flop or he outdraws you. You said he's weak-tight, so why do you think he would stack with less than a big hand even if you slowplay? He's not an aggro monster. And you have both the ace and king of clubs, so the only good draws are the full house draw and the straight flush draw, and those both beat you (well, one straight flush doesn't beat you, but that's splitting hairs a bit). I'd save the slowplays for the ragged flops and the overly aggressive players.


By the way, call me crazy but as played I'd fold the river. If he's not a very aggressive player, he's not going to three barrel bluff his whole stack, and by the river even AA is a bluff. Not to mention that a big river bet on that kind of board is often at least the top full house. After all, why bet so much on the bluff? The opponent's either got a monster or he's going to fold to any decent bet.
 
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Dwilius

Dwilius

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By the way, call me crazy but as played I'd fold the river. If he's not a very aggressive player, he's not going to three barrel bluff his whole stack, and by the river even AA is a bluff. Not to mention that a big river bet on that kind of board is often at least the top full house. After all, why bet so much on the bluff? The opponent's either got a monster or he's going to fold to any decent bet.

Read is he has big pp, he could have jacks and ahead on the turn.
However, he could also be trying to maximize value of an overpair after no more clubs hit. This isn't a big river bet, its all he has left, less than the relatively small pot.
 
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