25nl TPTK multiway trouble

zachvac

zachvac

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Stacks: - Leech24 with $15.35 - inductive with $25.55 - scar3anne with $13.65 - FrauBittner with $22.45 - zachvac with $26.55 - judda33 with $20.25 - ClaBel10 with $17.35 - sammyg11 with $24.95 - bubbasrules1 with $14.80

index.pl


index.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: pokerstars
* - Dealt to zachvac:
qc.gif
ah.gif

* - Sklansky group 3
Preflop:
* - clabel10 raises $0.75 to $1
**- 1 players fold.
* - bubbasrules1 calls [$1]
* - leech24 calls [$1]
**- 3 players fold.
* - zachvac calls [$0.90]

First off should I have raised here? AK I raise this easy, not sure about AQ.

* - judda33 calls [$0.75]
* - Total folds this street: 4
* - Potsize: $5
Flop:
9h.gif
th.gif
qd.gif

* - zachvac bets [$2]
* - judda33 calls [$2]
* - clabel10 calls [$2]
* - bubbasrules1 raises $2 to $4
* - 1 players folded.
zachvac ?

Only 4 hands on villain so no meaningful stats. What does this minraise most likely mean? Call here? Come over the top? Fold?
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t1riel

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A call here won't let you know what kind of hand he has. You have TPBK so represent. Reraise.
 
WVHillbilly

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I've been reraising more with AQ lately (probably 50% of the time) in these types of spots. It will usually chase out a lot of the lower suited connector type hands that can kill your TP hands. It also lends a little more weight to your c-bet postflop.

As played, the pot is getting large relative to the stack sizes and you're OOP. So unless you're comfortable getting all-in here with just top pair a fold might be best. It sucks but if you commit any more $$ to this pot you're probably going to have to be willing to play it all the way.
 
skoldpadda

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good example of why it's tough to play good hands oop.

I'd probably try to control the pot size. I don't like raising and bloating the pot on a draw heavy board when you'll be OOP for 2 more streets. I'd call and re-evaluate on the turn.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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You're right about it being tough OOP. Thought about posting this bit by bit, but not really much to analyze. I'm getting great odds so I decide to call. Last call was definitely questionable with 4 people in the hand and the 4 in a row to a straight and the flush draw hitting (although it would have been runner-runner). Still don't see how he shoves here, but obviously it paid off.

Leech24: folds
zachvac: calls $2
judda33: calls $2
ClaBel10: calls $2
*** TURN *** [9h Th Qd] [7d]
zachvac: checks
judda33: checks
ClaBel10: checks
bubbasrules1: bets $2
zachvac: calls $2
judda33: calls $2
ClaBel10: calls $2
*** RIVER *** [9h Th Qd 7d] [8d]
zachvac: checks
judda33: checks
ClaBel10: checks
bubbasrules1: bets $7.80 and is all-in
zachvac: calls $7.80
judda33: folds
ClaBel10: folds
*** SHOW DOWN ***
bubbasrules1: shows [Tc Ts] (three of a kind, Tens)
zachvac: mucks hand
bubbasrules1 collected $42.45 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $44.60 | Rake $2.15
Board [9h Th Qd 7d 8d]
Seat 1: Leech24 folded on the Flop
Seat 2: inductive folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: scar3anne folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: FrauBittner (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: zachvac (small blind) mucked [Qc Ah]
Seat 6: judda33 (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 7: ClaBel10 folded on the River
Seat 8: sammyg11 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: bubbasrules1 showed [Tc Ts] and won ($42.45) with three of a kind, Tens
 
skoldpadda

skoldpadda

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you have to fold that river imo
 
NineLions

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AQ is the borderline for me too for repopping from the blinds. If it's one player from late position, or a known LAG from earlier I'm more inclined to do so.

Why the probe size bet on the flop? I rarely use probe sizes; I find it invites too much action. In this case, the first caller gives then next better pot odds and so on, so it's hard to put clabel on a hand.

Minraises are hard to gauge. Some people who do them think it means a lot, but in this case you're getting what, 13-2? Great pot building raise if he's got JQh. I doubt that he's getting that tricky though.


Your flop bet might not be interpreted as a good Q, so his minraise might mean "I got a Q", or it might mean he's got 2 pair or even a set, without him realizing the pot odds he's giving you and the rest of them if someone's on a flush draw. I don't see how you can fold given the pot odds, but you might be well behind if you shove but you have redraws to the nut flush. Bleh, I probably call and reevaluate on the turn.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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It took me so long to post my post 5 people posted ahead of me. :)
 
ChuckTs

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What was your reasoning for betting the flop, zach?

you have to fold that river imo

correction: you have to fold that flop.

On the river we're getting a million:1 odds and can call profitably, I think. The mistake spawns from calling the flop though and is a perfect example of not having a plan for the hand.

On the flop we have to realize that calling probably commits us to calling a shove from that same villain (or smaller bets broken up into turn/river) barring some ugly cards dropping.

PF I'm repopping occasionally depending on who's in the pot; vs an unknown I think calling is fine, but we HAVE TO make sure we do it with the intention of keeping out of trouble on these types of boards.

It's a nasty spot and I don't like ch-folding or bet-folding that flop, but it's a much more attractive option than calling down as you did for me.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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I still think it's a tough fold (even more now that I see the results :) ). I also don't like the half pot sized bet after the flop. If you pot it here you can probably eliminate a few drawing hands and get away a little easier when raised.
Your $2 bet here looks more like a let me see if I can steal this pot bet than a strong hand betting.
 
Jagsti

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Not sure I like the call pf. As played pf, I want to hit this hand hard on the flop TPTK isn't what I would have wanted in a 5way pot on that board. I will chk flop oop see what happens, if there's action then I'm outta of that pot. Too many draws to be comfortable. I may consider betting flop and your $2 bet doesn't cut it, It has to be min 2/3rds in the region of $3.75 or so. If i get callers then I shut down for the rest of the hand and cut my losses.

Sometimes poker is not about what you can win, it's about what you don't lose.
 
zachvac

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The mistake spawns from calling the flop though and is a perfect example of not having a plan for the hand.


I think this pretty much nails it. I saw TPTK, thought it could be the best hand so I bet out hoping to fold a couple of them. I also told myself I was folding if I got re-raised. The minraise just threw me way off. I had no idea what it meant, weather I was ahead, or what. I just sort of thought I could be still ahead and that even if not I was getting plenty good odds. The problem is I didn't have good odds. I was only contributing 1/4 of what I would win back, but I also have to beat 3 other hands, and TPTK with that much action from 4 people just can't do that. In this example even if I hit the A or another Q, I'm way behind. I could be drawing to runner-runner (I was) or someone could have an overpair. I just got trapped in the action and didn't have a plan, as Chuck said.
 
Tygran

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I think against certain people I don't mind the flop call so much. Even in this spot it's what..an $11 pot and you are facing a $2 call?

Against a loose player I don't mind a call reevaluate on the turn. If he has JK we are dead in the water barring runner runner hearts but you see QK/QJ/TJ/two hearts here an awful lot. This is a somewhat loose play but I don't entirely mind calling this and then ch-folding on the turn since you didn't improve and it kills your backdoor flush draw. Basically if you call you are calling because 1) you may have best hand, 2) if you get a heart on the turn and he bets smallish again you could very well bust a straight or a set and have odds on the turn to do it, 3) a Q or an A would also give you reason to stick with the hand (bad cards to hit vs TT but I think you see a straight/draw/2 pair here alot more often than the set). You fold this turn despite good pot odds because 1) it didn't help you, 2) there are still 3 people in the pot - you are probably beat at this point already and 3) we really should have folded the flop anyway.

As an addendum to the above... looks like everyone including the tens is somewhat scared of that board (for good reason).. it isn't entirely out of the question for a turn check from you to just see a check around here.

I also don't mind folding to the flop bet but it just seems that a flop minraise like that is often a bad bluff or a draw. You are oop and the villain is unknown here however so that makes a much stronger case for folding on the flop. Of course it could just be a pot sweetener with a good hand (and with TT there I hate that min raise on a flush/straight board on the villains part..it's not a big enough raise since it gives draws odds to stick around.)


/TPTK is the worst hand you can have at a ring game i think sometimes
// Yes I've been reading Sklansky lately and his "non-optimal play to achieve optimal results" section
 
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