25nl TPTK gets action, can we get away from it?

zachvac

zachvac

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Stacks: - Futtocked with $24.80 - SobraoBoY with $31.10 - Tomzn with $4.40 - zachvac with $25.10 - embe303 with $28.80 - Perdix80 with $25.00 - Infared86 with $18.00 - SpaceCorp with $31.15 - greitis with $14.25

index.pl


index.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: pokerstars
Dealt to zachvac:
ah.gif
jd.gif

* - Sklansky group 4
Preflop:
**- 1 players fold.
* - spacecorp calls [$0.25]
* - greitis calls [$0.25]
**- 1 players fold.
* - sobraoboy calls [$0.25]
* - tomzn calls [$0.25] zachvac raises $1.25 to $1.50
**- 2 players fold.
* - spacecorp calls [$1.25]
**- 1 players fold.
* - sobraoboy calls [$1.25]
* - 1 players folded.
* - Total folds this street: 6
* - Potsize: $5.35
Flop:
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8d.gif
6s.gif

* - SpaceCorp: checks
* - SobraoBoY: checks zachvac bets [$2]
**- 1 players fold.
* - spacecorp calls [$2]
* - sobraoboy raises $5.25 to $7.25
**- 1 players fold.
zachvac ???

Only played an orbit here, so no real reads. There is a flush draw, which makes me more willing to call, and I do have TPTK. They both limped preflop so I don't think QQ-AA is very likely, but a low set as well as a combo straight flush draw is possible here. I did make a sizable PFR but I have no reads as to how tight/loose either of them are, don't know if hands like 86, J8, J6 are in their ranges.
https://www.cardschat.com
 
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Bentheman87

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I think you're first bet on the flop was a bit on the small size sobra might have interpreted this as weakness. You should move all in here. Pot is $9.35 and $16.60 including sobra's raise. I'd say you're most likely up against a semibluff flush draw or KJ QJ or Jack ten.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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Yep your cb is way too small, more like $3.75. I'm not sure about the all in move though. I hate pushing with tptk in cash games with no reads. We could easily be up against a set here and possibly fl dr as well. I'm inclined to call and evaluate the turn but I don't mind a fold here either.
 
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Bentheman87

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We're only losing to two possible sets here. But we are beating any other Jack with a weaker kicker, KJ QJ or Jack ten could have definetly limped preflop and called a raise. And we're beating flush draws or straight draws so move all in here.
 
WVHillbilly

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Close but I think I push. It's likely he's on a semi-bluff FD. I also would have put in at least $4 on the flop bet.
 
zachvac

zachvac

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Since so many have commented on the flop bet, I think this was my logic. I was pretty sure I was ahead, I had TPTK, they limped PF initially, so I assumed I was ahead and wanted them to call. So I bet $2 and it burns me as I get a call then a raise.
 
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Bentheman87

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"Since so many have commented on the flop bet, I think this was my logic. I was pretty sure I was ahead, I had TPTK, they limped PF initially, so I assumed I was ahead and wanted them to call. So I bet $2 and it burns me as I get a call then a raise."

But look at all the draws on that board, you gotta make it very expensive for them to draw out. You're $2 bet was giving them a little under 4:1 which means it would be correct for them to call with a small flush draw.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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In the end the flop bet size really doesn't change much except maybe make it more likely he's making a move with a hand that we crush (KJ/QJ). His thought process could be something along the lines of "Preflop raiser make less than 1/2 pot c-bet, spacecorp calls so he might have the FD, I'm likely ahead let me see if I can take this thing down right now". The more I think on this hand the more I push.
 
jaketrevvor

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In my experience the raiser here always has QJ and the flat-caller always has the set.

A couple things though: pf the raise is far too small. With 4 limpers this has to be $2 at least if you're going to squeeze, especially with a marginal holding. The flop bet is just silly but the one purpose it does achieve is that weaker Js and flush draws will raise into our apparent weakness almost invariably so for this reason I think it's an autoshove as we crush his range. Oh, and you just have to pray that the flat-caller lays down his set :)
 
zachvac

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Well I disagree that I should raise to $2, I think 6x is plenty big enough for a raise (in fact it follows the general guideline of 3x + each limper). Here's the whole hand:

POKERSTARS GAME #14963947842: HOLD'EM NO LIMIT ($0.10/$0.25) - 2008/01/31 - 17:29:42 (ET)
Table 'Merlin' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Futtocked ($24.80 in chips)
Seat 2: SobraoBoY ($31.10 in chips)
Seat 3: Tomzn ($4.40 in chips)
Seat 4: zachvac ($25.10 in chips)
Seat 5: embe303 ($28.80 in chips)
Seat 6: Perdix80 ($25 in chips)
Seat 7: Infared86 ($18 in chips)
Seat 8: SpaceCorp ($31.15 in chips)
Seat 9: greitis ($14.25 in chips)
embe303: posts small blind $0.10
Perdix80: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to zachvac [Ah Jd]
Infared86: folds
SpaceCorp: calls $0.25
greitis: calls $0.25
Futtocked: folds
SobraoBoY: calls $0.25
Tomzn: calls $0.25
zachvac: raises $1.25 to $1.50
embe303: folds
Perdix80: folds
SpaceCorp: calls $1.25
greitis: folds
SobraoBoY: calls $1.25
Tomzn: folds
*** FLOP *** [Js 8d 6s]
SpaceCorp: checks
SobraoBoY: checks
zachvac: bets $2
SpaceCorp: calls $2
SobraoBoY: raises $5.25 to $7.25
zachvac: folds
SpaceCorp: raises $22.40 to $29.65 and is all-in
SobraoBoY: calls $22.35 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [Js 8d 6s] [8h]
*** RIVER *** [Js 8d 6s 8h] [3s]
zachvac said, "folded AJ"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
SpaceCorp: shows [Td Qc] (a pair of Eights)
SobraoBoY: shows [5s 8s] (a flush, Jack high)
SobraoBoY collected $63.55 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $66.55 | Rake $3
Board [Js 8d 6s 8h 3s]
Seat 1: Futtocked folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: SobraoBoY showed [5s 8s] and won ($63.55) with a flush, Jack high
Seat 3: Tomzn folded before Flop
Seat 4: zachvac (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: embe303 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Perdix80 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: Infared86 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: SpaceCorp showed [Td Qc] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 9: greitis folded before Flop

I was a big dog to the guy who won the pot, but if I had known the guy behind would be all-in I would have had odds (had about 32% equity, winner had around 53%). Either way would have played it the same way (after the bet) if the cards were face up, meaning I didn't make a theoretical mistake, whether or not I made a real mistake here by not shoving is a different question.


Also, no idea what the hell the guy with QT was thinking ("OMG me has gut shot, me go all-in")
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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Also, no idea what the hell the guy with QT was thinking ("OMG me has gut shot, me go all-in")

Well the raiser had been faced with a v. weak c-bet followed by just a call so his range is fairly liberal and could very easily be a semi-bluff aussi, so I guess I can sympathise with the semibluff shove (although I wouldn't have done it myself :eek:)

Well I disagree that I should raise to $2, I think 6x is plenty big enough for a raise (in fact it follows the general guideline of 3x + each limper).

You had 4 limpers behind you, so this rule would actually mean you raise to $1.75 not $1.50, and at low stakes I've always thought that this "general guideline" sucks with how loose people are pf so unless you have a monster and want to get called you need to raise more imo, esp w/ AJ. And plus, isn't your regular pf raise 4xbb (or was that just at 10nl? I can't rememba...), if so the formula should be edited to 4xbb + 1 for every limper which = $2 anyway.
 
KyleJRM

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I'm shocked at how many people said move all-in here.

Think back over your career. What percentage of your winnings are made off people who just can't let go of TPTK when you hit something big? I'd bet a huge percentage.

Don't be that guy.
 
SavagePenguin

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I'm a little late, but I'll put my two cents in.
If Sobraoboy was all in with his $5.25 raise I would have called in a heartbeat.
Since he had a nice stack, I'd have folded. It was a lot less likely he was trying to do something desperate.

You played it great, Zachvac.
 
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Bentheman87

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"I was a big dog to the guy who won the pot, but if I had known the guy behind would be all-in I would have had odds (had about 32% equity, winner had around 53%). Either way would have played it the same way (after the bet) if the cards were face up, meaning I didn't make a theoretical mistake, whether or not I made a real mistake here by not shoving is a different question."

Um, you weren't a big dog to the guy with 8 5 you were only a little under 50%. Flush draw plus a pair he did have a lot of outs, but you are acting like you made a good fold. If you knew what he had you would have at least called.
 
ChuckTs

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He did make a good fold. Big pots call for big hands, and TPTK is nowhere near a big hand here. Good fold.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Chuck weren't you the one trying to argue for getting all your money in with TPTK with AJ in another thread? This hand is much closer to a push than your example was. The SPR in this hand is ~5 (SPR of 4 is good for TPTK against most opponents). The SPR in your hand was ~10 (double digit SPRs are bad for TPTK). The only thing that MIGHT tip this to a fold is the fact that there are 2 opponents not 1.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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link me please? tbh I haven't looked into this one too deeply but it looks like a pretty clear fold to me.

I could have been completely wrong in the other one...can't remember it though
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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I think the two are completely different.

1) we're up against two unknowns; other one we're up against a single maniac
2) lots of overcards here that could kill our hand, other one there are no overs
3) the board is much more coordinated here and the pf action could easily fit a lot more hands that have us beat; the other one is much drier


We rarely want to stack with TP when the action goes limp-call to a raise and then they put in tons of action after the flop - that's the sign of a nutminer who's probably hit his hand.
 
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