$25NL, minraise of flop bet

NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
Villian is ~20/4, calls my pf raise.

I hit TPTK and bet, he min raises from position. Do I have to think JJ/99/J9 here?



Stacks:
- UTG+1 with $28.85 - MP1 with $21.15 - MP2 with $26.45 - MP3 with $21.10 - CO with $22.05 - BTN with $24.45 - SB with $8.75 - BB with $40.35 - UTG with $8.40
index.pl

Site: full tilt poker
* - Dealt to MP1:J♣ A♥
* - Sklansky group 4
Preflop:
* - Hero raises to $0.85
* - CO calls [$0.85]
* - Folds: 7
* - Potsize: $2.05
Flop:
* - J♦ 4♠ 9♠
* - Hero bets [$1.25]
* - CO raises to $2.50

Poker Hand Converter By Cardschat.com Poker Forum
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
No, I don't think so.

I often see Jx when minraises like this show their hands down. vs the crappier players I'll see A4 T9 and even stone cold bluffs. It can also mean monsters. I guess it just depends on your opponent. Against an unknown player, I'm probably just check-calling it down if he doesn't go nuts.

Then again I'm also on my way back up from a 460BB downswing, so what do I know. No seriously, I wouldn't listen to my ring game advice :)
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Total posts
2,389
You're in a heads-up pot and you have top pair top kicker... what more could you ask for?

No way I'm ever folding, but you're probably best off just calling for pot control, although re-raising is good too. (If he shoves over your re-raise, you can probably fold then, although I'd call versus certain opponents - read dependent). If I just call, I might then donk a blank turn and see what he does. Tons of draws are possible here.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
Stacks: - UTG+1 with $28.85 - MP1 with $21.15 - MP2 with $26.45 - MP3 with $21.10 - CO with $22.05 - BTN with $24.45 - SB with $8.75 - BB with $40.35 - UTG with $8.40
index.pl

Site: Full Tilt Poker
- Dealt to MP1:J♣ A♥
- Sklansky group 4
Preflop:
- Hero raises to $0.85
- CO calls [$0.85]
- Folds: 7
- Potsize: $2.05
Flop:
- J♦ 4♠ 9♠
- Hero bets [$1.25]
- CO raises to $2.50
- Hero calls [$1.25]
- Potsize: $7.05
Turn:
- 8♥
- Hero checks
- CO bets [$2.25]


Okay, I called, trying to keep myself at least aware of a set/two pair, checked for pot control/to see what he does. Board is more draw-y. Best choice of action now?
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Total posts
2,389
Small bet looks weak - I'd probably raise to about $7 total, then check river if he calls. You have TPTK and you're going to be ahead most of the time, so you need to get value.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
Ya, I think I worried myself that I might be behind J9/JJ/99, and pretty much convinced myself to check down/call small bets.


Stacks: - UTG+1 with $28.85 - MP1 with $21.15 - MP2 with $26.45 - MP3 with $21.10 - CO with $22.05 - BTN with $24.45 - SB with $8.75 - BB with $40.35 - UTG with $8.40
index.pl

Site: Full Tilt Poker
- Dealt to MP1:J♣ A♥
- Sklansky group 4
Preflop:
- Hero raises to $0.85
- CO calls [$0.85]
- Folds: 7
- Potsize: $2.05
Flop:
- J♦ 4♠ 9♠
- Hero bets [$1.25]
- CO raises to $2.50
- Hero calls [$1.25]
- Potsize: $7.05
Turn:
- 8♥
- Hero checks
- CO bets [$2.25]
- Hero calls [$2.25]
- Potsize: $11.55
River:
- Q♦
- Hero checks
- CO bets [$4]
 
beechleaf

beechleaf

Rock Star
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Total posts
130
he has PP Qs sryy too say or PP K knowing that the best you had at the flop was pair of jacks
 
B

bw07507

Legend
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Total posts
2,219
You don't see too many people 3 barrel bluff at this limit, but you're getting 4:1, I think you have to call.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Total posts
2,389
Not a good river because you now don't beat JT or QJ, or anything that peeled the flop with a straight draw (KQ, QT)... in fact you don't beat much at all, but I'm a station so getting 4:1 I'd make a crying call and hope he flips up AJ, KJ, whiffed spades or some random air... I think you're losing but you only need to be good around 20% of the time. If he'd bet bigger I could probably fold it, but not at this price.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

Legend
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Total posts
2,380
Put the re-raiser on a flush or straight draw. If you are caught because he holds a higher pair like QQ's or KK's. Note him down as either passive player with good starting cards or likes to try to slow play them. Which in my likings instead I would rather win a small pot then lose a big pot because I didn't raise or re-raise pre-flop with a great starting pre-flop hand.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
This turned out to be a yucky hand for me, a luck-out hand for him.



Stacks: - UTG+1 with $28.85 - MP1 with $21.15 - MP2 with $26.45 - MP3 with $21.10 - CO with $22.05 - BTN with $24.45 - SB with $8.75 - BB with $40.35 - UTG with $8.40
index.pl

Site: Full Tilt Poker
- Dealt to MP1:J♣ A♥
- Sklansky group 4
Preflop:
- Hero raises to $0.85
- CO calls [$0.85]
- Folds: 7
- Potsize: $2.05
Flop:
- J♦ 4♠ 9♠
- Hero bets [$1.25]
- CO raises to $2.50
- Hero calls [$1.25]
- Potsize: $7.05
Turn:
- 8♥
- Hero checks
- CO bets [$2.25]
- Hero calls [$2.25]
- Potsize: $11.55
River:
- Q♦
- Hero checks
- CO bets [$4]
- Hero calls [$4]
Results:
- CO shows :
- 10♥ A♠
- CO wins the pot ($18.60) with a straight, Queen high


I can only assume his flop minraise was meant as a challenge if I was c-betting. Then, on the turn he lucks out and gets a draw, so he continues betting, and on the river it gets filled. :(
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
bah. Ugly one, but I think you played it well, NL. Those flop minraises can mean almost anything against a player who you've got no notes/hands on.

Reraising the flop is an option, but is much more volatile and can bloat the pot with a hand that doesn't need that much action. Plus it shuts down villain's bluff attempt, and we lose the value of his turn+river bets (he'll be drawing to at most 6 outs if he's doing it with overcards, and you'll win the majority of the time).
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
Thanks Chuck.

Pretty much my thinking. In retrospect the only place he might have folded would have been the flop but I had little reads on him and I didn't want to start bloating the pot on the flop, since that multiplies on the later streets. His tiny turn and river bets kept me calling. It all worked out perferctly for him. ('s obv rigged)


One of the interesting things for me was my reaction to his minraise of my flop bet. For some reason I had more than my usual level of awareness of the possibility that I might be behind (my usual awareness level ranges from nil to marginal). I don't know if that reflects improved awareness developing, or just a neurosis from my struggles since I started playing at FT. :(
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Total posts
2,389
Don't want to sound too harsh, but I think you played it pretty weakly. You allowed him to dictate the action, didn't give him the opportunity to fold his draw or get money in when you were ahead on the turn, then paid him off on the river. If he hadn't minraised the flop, how much would you have bet on the turn? - a bit more than 1/4 pot I expect. Also your flop bet is probably a bit small. You should be getting two streets of value here at least.
 
J

jeffred1111

Visionary
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Total posts
792
C/R turn or bet yourself because playing it passively here:
a) Gives a chance to a drawing hand to fill up
b) Makes us lose value by not having villain pay enough for his draw

The way you played it, villain was betting 100% of the time on the turn, thinking you got caught c-betting and thinking he would make you fold with a weak bet. Please to be raising this next time, this is JJ, 99 or 44 like never after a small turn bet: he would be as much worried about drawing hands as you did with such a hand.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
Don't want to sound too harsh, but I think you played it pretty weakly. You allowed him to dictate the action, didn't give him the opportunity to fold his draw or get money in when you were ahead on the turn, then paid him off on the river. If he hadn't minraised the flop, how much would you have bet on the turn? - a bit more than 1/4 pot I expect. Also your flop bet is probably a bit small. You should be getting two streets of value here at least.

I dunno; would he have folded his 8 outer on the turn? Maybe if I shoved, but at that point I'm really dead if he checkraised the flop with QT and had the 8 outer at the flop (which, as a hand, would have made more sense as a hand for him to raise the flop with), or in a risky situation against T8 too.

If he's got any other hand than something with a ten in it or 99/J9/44 I could see him folding if I led at the turn, but my thinking was that the flop raise meant either he's ahead of me on the flop or he's semibluffing with a draw, and on the turn one of the draws may have come in.

But I can see your point about the turn size. If he had not minraised I would have been leading the turn with more than he bet. I may have been too concerned about already being behind and therefore just wanting to see showdown cheaply.


C/R turn or bet yourself because playing it passively here:
a) Gives a chance to a drawing hand to fill up
b) Makes us lose value by not having villain pay enough for his draw

The way you played it, villain was betting 100% of the time on the turn, thinking you got caught c-betting and thinking he would make you fold with a weak bet. Please to be raising this next time, this is JJ, 99 or 44 like never after a small turn bet: he would be as much worried about drawing hands as you did with such a hand.

Hmm, my thinking on the turn is either he's already filled, or he's still ahead from the flop, or he's got something but behind me from the flop. If he's still drawing I expected a check on the turn to see the river. Since he bet small, I narrowed that to either ahead letting me call down cheaply, or behind (KJ/QJ or some sort) and making a weak attempt to continue to rep something. If he's behind I don't mind him continuing to bet into me.

I think you're right about sets; it'd be a dangerous play to keep me in it if I'm drawing. What I didn't expect is what he had; a stab at the flop with overcards/runner-runner draw, that only improved on the turn, but didn't yet fill.

Plus, I'm hesitant to keep building a pot with one pair that hasn't improved unless I suspect he's still drawing, which isn't what I suspected, especially after he bet.
 
gord962

gord962

Legend
Joined
Feb 10, 2006
Total posts
1,648
I would be raising to a minimum of $1 PF and the elad with a pot size on the flop with TPTK. With the villian's min raise on the flop he is trying to see if you actually hit or are c-betting. Either re-pop or lead out a pot size bet on the turn. As bombjack said you have to give this guy the chance to fold. You have to make it incorrect for him to continue to draw on you.

If you felt strongly that you were behind when you were raised on the flop, fold. There is no sense drawing dead or best case scenario a 3 outer (for the A) if he has one of the hands you have put him on.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

Legend
Joined
Jul 6, 2006
Total posts
2,389
I dunno; would he have folded his 8 outer on the turn? Maybe if I shoved, but at that point I'm really dead if he checkraised the flop with QT and had the 8 outer at the flop (which, as a hand, would have made more sense as a hand for him to raise the flop with), or in a risky situation against T8 too.
You don't want him to fold an 8-outer; you want him to call a bet when he doesn't have to odds to do so... basic poker theory... so that you'll make more from the times he doesn't draw out on you than you'll lose on the times that he does. If he does play perfectly and fold, that's OK too, because you win the pot.
 
Top