25nl deep, K4 flopping 2 pair vs aggression on turn

S

switch0723

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Total posts
8,430
villain is 20/16/2, but thats irrelevant as its only over 16 hands

He doubled up flopping set vs overpair first hand if thats important in anyway

Seat 1: salamin ($20.95 in chips)
Seat 2: blueskyxx ($5 in chips)
Seat 3: Le_BaronNL ($27.15 in chips)
Seat 5: marv-7-19-60 ($11.70 in chips)
Seat 6: sebb23 ($17 in chips)
Seat 7: Zinkero ($51.50 in chips)
Seat 8: switch0723 ($54.90 in chips)
Seat 9: lifepulse ($13.90 in chips)
Zinkero: posts small blind $0.10
switch0723: posts big blind $0.25
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to switch0723 [Kd 4c]
lifepulse: folds
salamin: folds
blueskyxx: folds
Le_BaronNL: folds
marv-7-19-60: folds
sebb23: folds
Zinkero: calls $0.15
switch0723: raises $1 to $1.25
Zinkero: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [Ks 4d Jc]
Zinkero: bets $1.50
switch0723: raises $4.50 to $6
Zinkero: calls $4.50
*** TURN *** [Ks 4d Jc] [Qs]
Zinkero: checks
switch0723: bets $10
Zinkero: raises $10 to $20
switch0723: ???????

Really have absolutely no idea what to do here, all i know is that villain has put in about half his stack, probably committing them to the pot
 
B

bw07507

Legend
Joined
Jan 8, 2007
Total posts
2,219
Blind vs Blind I think I just get this in here although his line is very strong. Youd think he would probably raise preflop with QJ, KJ with his stats being 20/16 so yea I think I shove here.

Hmm, didnt realize u were both that deep, wow this really does suck, I have no idea what to do, lol.
 
pantin007

pantin007

member
Joined
Apr 12, 2007
Total posts
6,208
i think if u call this u have to call the river unless it puts 4 to a str8 on the board, i think his most likely holdings to make a play like this would be like 10-9 or QJ, but with those stats he might have raised with that, i think i make a crying call here and on the river unless it puts the 4th to a str8
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
What were you hoping for when you bet the turn? As deep as the stacks are getting all-in here with top and bottom is probably not a long term winning play. After he called the flop raise I think slowing down on the turn is the right play. If these bets were on the river calling would be a no brainer, but with another street of action I fold this and feel sick about it.

I guess you could call and fold to a bet on the river, but by calling here we're either committing the rest of our stack or folding on the river with more than 50% of our stack invested. Either way it's not pretty.
 
S

switch0723

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Total posts
8,430
If were willing to call river though, we may aswell shove here right???
 
S

switch0723

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Total posts
8,430
What were you hoping for when you bet the turn? As deep as the stacks are getting all-in here with top and bottom is probably not a long term winning play. After he called the flop raise I think slowing down on the turn is the right play. If these bets were on the river calling would be a no brainer, but with another street of action I fold this and feel sick about it.

huh?? I don't understand what you mean about my turn line, you think i should check that turn?? He has a huge range of hands that i beat after his flop call that i want action from.

Checking the turn seems to weaksauce, but i dunno, i have no clue how to play this hand
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Well, you got what you wanted then. Plenty of action.

I play a lot of these hands more carefully (weak if you want) when stacks get to 200bb+. You'll find the rare player willing to get their whole stack in without a better hand than you have here, but in general if you shove and he calls you're beat. Only because this is a blind v blind hand do I even consider stacking with top and bottom.
 
S

switch0723

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Total posts
8,430
If we are going to check turn, we are going to call river right??? Well if thats the case, why aren't we betting on the turn, an amount we would be willing to call, and get value from the huge range of hands that we beat and protect our hand vs any draws about
 
Richyl2008

Richyl2008

Visionary
Joined
Mar 14, 2008
Total posts
731
Agreed this spot really sucks, its hard to put him on a hand that beats you that could have played it this way. At the same time though his turn raise indicates a ton of strength and the only hand I think that you can beat after he raises is QJ. But it is also possible with his stats that he could of been trapping with a big pair preflop. If he had JJ or QQ his play seems to make a lot more sense postflop. AA would be one other hand you could beat if he was trapping but I don't think he would raise the turn with it. 100bb deep I think I'd get it in. But 200 deep I'd think I'd fold personally.
 
S

switch0723

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Total posts
8,430
I personally don't think big pairs are in his range, if he is limping from the sb, he is probably limp/3betting when i put in the raise. Although QQ is a possibility here, if he has decided to take a flop, then bet out in a oh f*ck there is a king out there, then called my raise in a, he's obviously bluffing way.

I honestly see bare pairs that have no been improved to draws aswell doing this, j,t, k,t, or vice versa with hands like q,t, originally a oesd, that has now hit a pair
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
If we are going to check turn, we are going to call river right??? Well if thats the case, why aren't we betting on the turn, an amount we would be willing to call, and get value from the huge range of hands that we beat and protect our hand vs any draws about

Yes, if we check the turn we're calling the river or betting if he checks again. The difference is that on the river we know exactly what it's going to cost us to reach showdown. This hand is so ugly not because he min raised us but because we don't know how much it will ultimately cost us to see the showdown.

If he had just called your turn bet and then checked the river would you have bet again on the river (assume a blank fell on the river)?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
This is just an overall terrible spot imo. I think we have to fold readless. If I know those stats are true over a large sample size and we have some history I think we can get it in, but against an unknown I just think he shows up with a better hand too often. I mean do AJ/AK/AQ/QT/KT etc really play this way?

I dunno, I guess this could be a really cheap and crappy bluff or QJ.

Checking the turn is fine. This isn't necessarily a hand you want to stack with this deep - hence the fact that it's such a tough spot. It just sucks because a lot of the time you'll see a card on the river that either kills your hand or you action (A/T/J/Q). It's close, but I think I agree with WV in that we should be exercising a little pot control and checking it.

Ya just a shitty spot. I really can't tell you what I'd do in the hand, but I feel like a fold is probably right as played.
 
F

feitr

Legend
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Total posts
1,570
Very very difficult hand to try and give advice, coz like you said it is extremely hard to know what to do. I only really see you beating QT and QJ here. It doesn't really look like a bluff, because that min raise is just begging a call.

It is a really hard hand tho because given his stats, the limp from sb makes no sense whatsoever. It almost looks like he is trying to trap with AA or something, but i can't see villain slowplaying a big pocket pair for that long at all. It is like villain's line screams that you are beat, but it is really hard to figure out a hand he could have that actually beats you. KJ isn't going to limp/call preflop, 44/JJ/KK/QQ etc aren't going to be limp/calling preflop. This looks so much like QJ but he woudl probably raise that preflop as well. 9T is, imo, the only hand that seems to make sense and have you beat. Maybe it is just me, but villain's line looks like a 2nd pair type hand or a draw of some sort on the flop that improved on the turn...ie. QJ, QT or something

Not really sure what you should do here...the entire problem is that you are both so deep. Obviously a check on the turn would have been nice, but you couldnt' have necessarily expected this. You probably have to fold here just to protect your stack, but i'm pretty sure that villain has no idea of the strength of your hand, so JQ etc is quite possible. My gut says you are beat here, but my head just can't seem to find a likely hand that would do so.

I really can't see 44/JJ/QQ/KK/KJ/KQ here. JQ/9T/QT seem more likely. It is just really hard to connect the preflop action to big hands that can beat you given his stats (and the fact that he hasn't played much so probabaly doesn't have much of a read on you). But i have no idea...if i was in this situation i would want to die.
 
S

switch0723

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Total posts
8,430
aite, cheers peeps

In the hand i made a 'wtf is this? well i has multiple pairs so i call' call. We both checked a blank river, and he flipped over j,4 for a lower flopped 2 pair, knew i played it horribly though and that was basically the bottom of his range, and after calling the turn, i knew i was going to have to call a river shove if it happened, which is never a good place to be.

I of course then sat there thinking, damn, how did we not get more money in the middle on the flop :(
 
Top