$25NL; bet into after no c-bet

NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
I think I'm watching too much advanced strategy (and probably misunderstanding it at that).

For whatever reason, I looked at this flop and thought it's one to keep the pot small and not c-bet. Villian (24/6/4) probably took this to mean a missed flop and bet into me.

But, if you don't c-bet you induce bluffs. Do we call this turn bet?



Stacks:
- MP2 with $29.30 - MP3 with $24.25 - CO with $12.80 - BTN with $25.20 - SB with $18.85 - BB with $28.00 - UTG with $5.00 - UTG+1 with $23.20 - MP1 with $26.25
index.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: pokerstars
* - Dealt to BTN:Q♠ A♠
* - Sklansky group 2
Preflop:
**- 6 players fold.
* - Hero raises $0.75 to $1
**- 1 players fold.
* - BB calls [$0.75]
* - Total folds this street: 7
* - Potsize: $2.1
Flop:
* - J♦ K♦ 6♠
* - BB: checks
* - Hero: checks
* - Potsize: $2.1
Turn:
* - 5♣
* - BB bets [$1]

Poker Hand Converter By Cardschat.com Poker Forum
 
Cheetah

Cheetah

Guest
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Oct 15, 2007
Total posts
825
It is villain-dependent, but often you can call because of the following(in order of importance):
  • You have position
  • You have A-high which may be the best hand
  • You have nut-str8 draw
  • You have A-draw
The biggest problem with "advanced strategies" is that when you play with very bad players, these strategies don't work. As Sklansky said in one of his books, there are levels of thinking. To deploy an advanced strategy, your opponent has to be thinking no more than one-level below your level.

If I am playing with observant opponents, I will often(but not always) c-bet the flop in position with a hand like top pair, not great kicker, draw, nothing, etc. Then on turn, I will often check behind. This often induces a bluff on the river, which I can call profitably. Of course this same pattern has to be done with great hands as well.

Checking behind on the flop DOES induce bluffs since you showed weakness. That's another reason to call a small bet to send the message that you are not easy to bluff.

But overall, whether to call the turn bet or not depends on the dynamics between you and that player.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
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Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
This is actually a good flop to c-bet. We can push out a lot of pocket pairs as well as some jacks.

As played I just fold. We're obv not getting odds to call, and probably aren't getting implied odds either.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
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13,642
It is villain-dependent, but often you can call because of the following(in order of importance):
  • You have position
  • You have A-high which may be the best hand
  • You have nut-str8 draw
  • You have A-draw
-position is good, ie we can float and bluff the river (or even bluff raise now), but there aren't many hands that take this line that are folding at this point.

-true

-true, but not getting anywhere near enough implied odds

-true

I don't hate calling here; we could debate this further but I think the biggest problem is not betting this flop. We induce bluffs/make hands we could have folded out on the flop think they're best too often.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

Legend
Joined
Aug 18, 2006
Total posts
5,389
IMHO, if you're going to raise preflop, you have to c-bet the flop most of the time to represent the strength you showed preflop.
If you had made a continuation bet on the flop of about $1 and villian had re-raised, it's an easy fold.
As played, I would fold here for the reasons mentioned by other posters.
 
A

alan1983

Visionary
Joined
Dec 13, 2006
Total posts
641
I dont think its a question of keeping the pot small here. Generally i want to keep the pot small when i have a marginal made hand already.

No point keeping pot small when you have air.

Youre only against one opponent, c-bet. if you thought the flop was dangerous with the kings and jacks, thats fine too but dont get spewy and call bets on the turn with no clear direction where to go later.

As played and since you already didnt, i fold here.

only tens are clean outs, he could have AJ, KQ, etc...so fold it.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
I dont think its a question of keeping the pot small here. Generally i want to keep the pot small when i have a marginal made hand already.

No point keeping pot small when you have air.

As I drifted off to sleep last night, I realized what I had missed here.


I was looking at the flop, but not the hole cards, at least in the examples I was trying to compare to. The examples had a marginal hand; TP usually, with a dangerous board.

Here I have air, so the only way to win this is to follow through with a proper c-bet. Unless he's willing to check it all the way down, which doesn't seem likely given his aggression levels.


One day I'll learn to pay attention to the whole story ....:eek:
 
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