$25 NLHE Nut flush draw and straigh draws on the flop

hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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pokerstars Game #9379369447: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/04/12 - 03:39:56 (ET)
Table 'Aquarius III' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: MR W 59 ($22.65 in chips)
Seat 3: hott_estelle ($20 in chips)
Seat 4: Sandmn3 ($9.55 in chips)
Seat 5: Mister Dy ($16.25 in chips)
Seat 6: serfinf ($39.70 in chips)
Seat 7: dong88 ($11.70 in chips)
Seat 8: entsafter ($6.25 in chips)
Seat 9: hanhu ($24.50 in chips)
Mister Dy: posts small blind $0.10
serfinf: posts big blind $0.25
hott_estelle: posts small & big blinds $0.35
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hott_estelle [Ts As]
dong88: folds
entsafter: folds
MrRvW joins the table at seat #1
hanhu: calls $0.25
MR W 59: folds
hott_estelle: checks
Sandmn3: calls $0.25
Mister Dy: raises $1.50 to $1.75
serfinf: folds
hanhu: folds
hott_estelle: calls $1.50
Sandmn3: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [4h Qs Ks]
Mister Dy: bets $3
hott_estelle: ??


What do you do? Raise here or just call? No reads, first hand at table, I accidentally hit post small and big blind (just sat down to play some low stakes games as I ate dinner).
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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I think you call here. U have the outs and the pot odds. Might be a bit weak, but if you raise and they reraise u will have put more into the pot than is needed, and what do u do if they push all in - u could be pot committed?

If the turn misses u again then u will get a chance to see what he does. Make a decision after that. IMO
 
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

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U rerse the pot here for sure so if you can u take it down now and if u cant u still got good odds to hit to take it dwon/. If u call and dont hit the turn what u gonna do? If the flush hits tht kills your action u really want to get the pot to a good size so u can either steal or win it later
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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you have boatloads of equity if you want to drag other people in the pot with you by calling.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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either play is fine i think. you're not closing action, so if someone flopped a monster, our raise will def be shoved into.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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either play is fine i think. you're not closing action, so if someone flopped a monster, our raise will def be shoved into.

Interesting how my play is different to Stefs?

I think mine is the `safe` play, Stefs is the more aggressive. Either play would work, but I am coming to terms with how I am not as succesful as I could be.

It is down to pride. If I was in a game with Stef (in the past) I would continue my TAG play. However, I would get impatient and then get caught by Stef catching a monster flop (It has happened before, I think u were in the small blind, called my 3x blinds raise with 104. U caught set of 10`s on flop - I had AK I think. U raised, I got impatient, did not believe u and pushed all in with Ace high :eek: )

The way I have changed is that now Stef would need to chance most of his stack with my AK as in the position I was in I would go all in and see how good a hand 104 is then ;) .

Back to the hand in question, my move might have been different in a MTT/ SNG. In the early stages of a MTT I might push all in. Reason? Great opportunity to double up or take down the pot now - If I get called and bust I can then move on to another MTT. This is my opinion only.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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I just call because our equity looks really good multi-way, and all our draws are to the nuts, so we'd like other villain to come along for the ride with a hand they wouldn't call a raise with. If it's heads up, I'm usually raising here
 
Stefanicov

Stefanicov

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Interesting how my play is different to Stefs?

I think mine is the `safe` play, Stefs is the more aggressive. Either play would work, but I am coming to terms with how I am not as succesful as I could be.

It is down to pride. If I was in a game with Stef (in the past) I would continue my TAG play. However, I would get impatient and then get caught by Stef catching a monster flop (It has happened before, I think u were in the small blind, called my 3x blinds raise with 104. U caught set of 10`s on flop - I had AK I think. U raised, I got impatient, did not believe u and pushed all in with Ace high :eek: )

The way I have changed is that now Stef would need to chance most of his stack with my AK as in the position I was in I would go all in and see how good a hand 104 is then ;) .

Back to the hand in question, my move might have been different in a MTT/ SNG. In the early stages of a MTT I might push all in. Reason? Great opportunity to double up or take down the pot now - If I get called and bust I can then move on to another MTT. This is my opinion only.


Both plays would work but i prefer to know where i am early as poss in a hnd.. If some 1 flopped massive hnd i want toknow now rather thn calling and making a play on the turn only to vave top set turned over.

Ronald u and i have differing versions of tag i will be in every pot trying to take it dwn whilst u like to hve the crds to take most pots dwn and get flustered when u c a donk like me bullying everyone and getting away with it.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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Both plays would work but i prefer to know where i am early as poss in a hnd.. If some 1 flopped massive hnd i want toknow now rather thn calling and making a play on the turn only to vave top set turned over.

That's not really an issue in this hand. Look at the stacks. If we raise any amount and either player shoves, we absolutely have to call anyway. Even if we knew they had a set, a fold would be incorrect
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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Ronald u and i have differing versions of tag i will be in every pot trying to take it dwn whilst u like to hve the crds to take most pots dwn and get flustered when u c a donk like me bullying everyone and getting away with it.

:D U know I was only joking and I like to try to stir u up???

U playing stars 2moro in CC game??? If so, we`ll c what works best :cool:
 
J

joeeagles

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Either play I guess is correct here however, given the situation, its best to have other villain to come along so I agree with combu that a call is probably the way to go, unless you are sure that a raise will make other villain fold leaving you in position for the remainder of this hand. That would make sense but you can't be sure and too many bad things could happen ( as was already said either player could shove after your reraise and you would be forced to call). The raise would make more sense heads up for the chance to take the pot down right away but that is not the case here because its very unlikely that both players missed that flop so a raise would surely get at least 1 caller (or maybe a shove) and you don't have a made hand yet. If you just call and don't hit the turn your further action will depend on size of the bet and if other villain is still in the pot. The worst part IMO of this hand is exactly the fact you don't have position on other villain if he hangs around, but still I wouldn't raise because of the texture of that flop that makes it unlikely you will take it down now.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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Looking back at the hand with more time

That's not really an issue in this hand. Look at the stacks. If we raise any amount and either player shoves, we absolutely have to call anyway. Even if we knew they had a set, a fold would be incorrect

I think I`m right, technically, because of what combuboom says.

I`m not very good at jumping back and forth to the hand history, but you have 12 outs giving u the nuts (clubs and 3 other jacks) your Ace might be an out, but as u r not sure I would count that as 1 out and obviously the other guy could be on a draw/ lower pair and is making a continuation bet. So, the way I work it, u r about 28% to catch the nuts. If you miss the turn you obviously have a decision to make based on what the other guy does.

If the other guy raises, you have a pot odds decision to make again. It may well be, looking at it in more detail, the move suggested by Stef might not be as bad as I first though, because If u call and then the person to act after u calls, even if u miss the turn and the guy first to act goes all in, u could have the odds to call any way. Excuse my maths, but there will be about $15 in the pot, he will go all in with his remaining £10, making the pot about $25. It will cost u about $10 to call and u will still have about a 28% of catching. and that is before the person after you makes a decision after the turn.

Confusing or what???
 
ChuckTs

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I just call because our equity looks really good multi-way, and all our draws are to the nuts, so we'd like other villain to come along for the ride with a hand they wouldn't call a raise with. If it's heads up, I'm usually raising here


^^^This for me. I want to invite the last player in if possible, not scare him out.

What do we do on the turn if it drops a brick and we're faced with another strong 2/3+ pot bet?
 
dj11

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If you call and Sandman folds, you are left in the situation of probably facing a persuasive cbet on the turn. If Sandman calls your call, same situation.

If you raise and Sandman folds, and Dy calls same situation, If they both call, same situation.

If you raise and either re raises. then you have an even dicier decision to make.

With no reads as this is your first hand, tread carefully.

I call here but am ready to muck this hand. Mainly because there are no reads on the other players.
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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I'd raise for fold equity and not mind getting it all in if necessary. You're a dog here versus AQ/AK, so calling will not win you any extra money over what you would get by having them fold in the long term, unless you can get them to put in a lot of money on later streets when they're behind. You can definitely get a hand like JJ or AQ to fold here by bumping it up to $12, and you can call if they shove, so raising seems to be the right play.
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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I just call because our equity looks really good multi-way, and all our draws are to the nuts, so we'd like other villain to come along for the ride with a hand they wouldn't call a raise with. If it's heads up, I'm usually raising here

^^^This for me. I want to invite the last player in if possible, not scare him out.

What do we do on the turn if it drops a brick and we're faced with another strong 2/3+ pot bet?


This is exactly the thinking I had. I wanted to draw the other player into the pot as well. Next question, what do you do now on the turn with this card?? What hands can you possibly put the all-in pusher on? And can you possibly call here?


PokerStars Game #9379369447: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/04/12 - 03:39:56 (ET)
Table 'Aquarius III' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: MR W 59 ($22.65 in chips)
Seat 3: hott_estelle ($20 in chips)
Seat 4: Sandmn3 ($9.55 in chips)
Seat 5: Mister Dy ($16.25 in chips)
Seat 6: serfinf ($39.70 in chips)
Seat 7: dong88 ($11.70 in chips)
Seat 8: entsafter ($6.25 in chips)
Seat 9: hanhu ($24.50 in chips)
Mister Dy: posts small blind $0.10
serfinf: posts big blind $0.25
hott_estelle: posts small & big blinds $0.35
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hott_estelle [Ts As]
dong88: folds
entsafter: folds
MrRvW joins the table at seat #1
hanhu: calls $0.25
MR W 59: folds
hott_estelle: checks
Sandmn3: calls $0.25
Mister Dy: raises $1.50 to $1.75
serfinf: folds
hanhu: folds
hott_estelle: calls $1.50
Sandmn3: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [4h Qs Ks]
Mister Dy: bets $3
hott_estelle: calls $3
Sandmn3: calls $3
*** TURN *** [4h Qs Ks] [Tc]
Mister Dy: bets $11.50 and is all-in
hott_estelle: ???
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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AA/KK/QQ/AK/44 if he's feeling gutsy PF/KQ...He could be bluffing too (%10 minimum according to Mr Harrington. AJ is a possibility too, but less likely since he probably won't c-bet that flop. Maybe AQ too..thought he's gotta be pretty aggressive to play it that hard post-flop here.

We're not quite getting odds to call against that range (we're a 2.6:1 dog, getting 2.2 on our money). We're not factoring in the fact that he could be bluffing too, and that the player behind us might call, giving us much better pot odds.

I dunno...in the moment I probably fold this as I suck at maths on the spot, and wouldn't be able to tell if I'm getting the right odds or not. Maybe some better EV people can tell us if this is a call or not...
 
Bombjack

Bombjack

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You have to fold now, worst case you have 8 clean outs (+3 to split), in the very best case you have 17 (Mister Dy has KQ). You're getting 2:1 or something so you only have odds in the very best case, and even then it's neutral EV.
 
JAMILE1

JAMILE1

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As Chuck stated what if he pops on turn as shown? this is a tuff one. maybe he be holding AK, AQ maybe AA KK QQ and maybe trying to push you off a draw, as AJ is not pushing here. I don't know being the donk that I am I think I'm calling, squeezing for that flush:confused:
 
J

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Pot is now $25.85. I don't think A can be counted as an out because of what the board would look like. We could count the 2 remaining T's as outs (maybe?). If we do that comes to 14 outs, with 1 card to come that means 30.5% to make our hand.

If we make the assumption that the other villain, who only has $4.80 left, will make the call, pot would be $30.65, which is close enough to justify this call, but I'm not sure if its right to make this assumption. Also, all this if we count 14 outs, which may not be true (if Chuck's range is correct, and we're up against AA/KK/QQ we actually have 11 outs, since we lose the 2 T's and the 4s).

I think the worst part of this hand is the fact that both villains, if the other calls, are all in, so if you hit your hand you won't squeeze another penny out of them and that hurts your implied odds.

It looks like a tough call to make, perhaps folding would be correct.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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Admittedly this was pretty much worse case scenario for calling; we call, no raise behind us, wiff the turn (well, kind of... we might have added some tens and/or aces as outs, but they're often not clean), and the PF raiser still likes his hand enough to shove. It's kind of unlucky, because he could have just been making a continuation bet or just had something marginal, but it looks like he may have a real hand, often AK, KQ, QQ or KK. But if this is his range, we shouldn't feel too bad about not raising the flop anyway, because our equity would not have been near as good as we thought.

So yeah, I probably lay it down at this point, but I actually think it's kind of close to borderline, maybe slightly -EV against most opponents. But given certain reads (like if I think particular opponent would do this often enough with KJ, or a draw, or an actual bluff)/if I FEEL LIKE GAMBOLING enough, I could call here.

I hope you called so we can see what he had, and duh draws always hit the river on Pokerstars so add like 15% to our equity ;)
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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PokerStars Game #9379369447: Hold'em No Limit ($0.10/$0.25) - 2007/04/12 - 03:39:56 (ET)
Table 'Aquarius III' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 2: MR W 59 ($22.65 in chips)
Seat 3: hott_estelle ($20 in chips)
Seat 4: Sandmn3 ($9.55 in chips)
Seat 5: Mister Dy ($16.25 in chips)
Seat 6: serfinf ($39.70 in chips)
Seat 7: dong88 ($11.70 in chips)
Seat 8: entsafter ($6.25 in chips)
Seat 9: hanhu ($24.50 in chips)
Mister Dy: posts small blind $0.10
serfinf: posts big blind $0.25
hott_estelle: posts small & big blinds $0.35
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hott_estelle [Ts As]
dong88: folds
entsafter: folds
MrRvW joins the table at seat #1
hanhu: calls $0.25
MR W 59: folds
hott_estelle: checks
Sandmn3: calls $0.25
Mister Dy: raises $1.50 to $1.75
serfinf: folds
hanhu: folds
hott_estelle: calls $1.50
Sandmn3: calls $1.50
*** FLOP *** [4h Qs Ks]
Mister Dy: bets $3
hott_estelle: calls $3
Sandmn3: calls $3
*** TURN *** [4h Qs Ks] [Tc]
Mister Dy: bets $11.50 and is all-in
hott_estelle: calls $11.50
Sandmn3: calls $4.80 and is all-in
*** RIVER *** [4h Qs Ks Tc] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Mister Dy: shows [Ah Kh] (two pair, Kings and Tens)
hott_estelle: shows [Ts As] (three of a kind, Tens)
hott_estelle collected $12.75 from side pot
Sandmn3: mucks hand
hott_estelle collected $27.85 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $42.65 Main pot $27.85. Side pot $12.75. | Rake $2.05
Board [4h Qs Ks Tc Th]
Seat 2: MR W 59 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: hott_estelle showed [Ts As] and won ($40.60) with three of a kind, Tens
Seat 4: Sandmn3 (button) mucked [Kc Js]
Seat 5: Mister Dy (small blind) showed [Ah Kh] and lost with two pair, Kings and Tens
Seat 6: serfinf (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: dong88 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: entsafter folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: hanhu folded before Flop


I felt like gambling a little, and felt I had enough odds and outs to call this play. Criticize if you must.

Also, well, like I said before I was multitasking a bit and well, I pushed call after about 10 seconds of thinking because I didn't want to dwell too long on it. Had work to do, lol.
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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i think this is fine if you know the sandman dude is tailing along too.
 
hott_estelle

hott_estelle

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i think this is fine if you know the sandman dude is tailing along too.

That was factored in as well, but it wasn't as big as just the outs I thought I had and that I was just plain gambling here.
 
Ronaldadio

Ronaldadio

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It is a complicated one, but to simplify what I said, `if it was me` I would call the raise, then call the all in. Now what is interesting for me, is going back a few of the guys have said reraise, so looking at it from that point of view, I seem like I`m putting all my chips in with a draw, so I might as well push earlier and they might fold.

Thats the good thing about this site, it makes u think and u learn something new everyday.

One last thing, I think we have to accept we are behind at the flop and turn :rolleyes:
 
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