$25 NLHE 6-max: What will you do on the flop in this 3bet pot

[Alexchen]

I am deep here (>250 BB) and the SB is a very aggressive player (18% 3bet preflop), the BB just sat down the table and just played 17 hands

I open Td8d in the CO which is standard. SB 3-bet (which I think could be a lot of hands here) and the BB cold call. Usually, I should fold the T8 but since the BB call gives me a good price, I am in position and I am deep, I decide to flat this hand.

Flop the SB bet 2/3 of the pot and the BB cold again. Now they two are committed to the pot. This flop is one of the best flop we could have with middle pair 88, flush draw and back door flush draw. I think the SB could C-bet wide here with two big over, over pairs, and also flush draw. Even facing the worse hand which could be 99 I still have 30% equity. I am a little worry about the BB's range but I think the most likely hand range could be TT and AX flush draw or some loose A9s.

So I jam this hand which I don't think there will be a lot of fold equity. What will you guys do here? Reply me then I will tell you the hand reslut

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.25 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

MP: 112.56 BB (VPIP: 12.24, PFR: 10.20, 3Bet Preflop: 6.45, Hands: 101)
Hero (CO): 266.08 BB
BTN: 45.2 BB (VPIP: 20.88, PFR: 12.09, 3Bet Preflop: 3.90, Hands: 188)
SB: 104.6 BB (VPIP: 30.22, PFR: 17.99, 3Bet Preflop: 18.03, Hands: 142)
BB: 140.4 BB (VPIP: 37.50, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 17)
UTG: 109.52 BB (VPIP: 17.02, PFR: 12.23, 3Bet Preflop: 5.71, Hands: 193)

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 8:diamond: T:diamond:

UTG raises to 2.2 BB, fold, Hero calls 2.2 BB, fold, SB raises to 14 BB, BB calls 13 BB, fold, Hero calls 11.8 BB

Flop: (44.2 BB, 3 players) 9:diamond: 5:diamond: 8:spade:
SB bets 29 BB, BB calls 29 BB, Hero raises to 252.08 BB and is all-in, SB calls 61.6 BB and is all-in, fold

 

[Hujiko]

You have a 250 BB stack which is deep but your opponents do not have you covered so your effective stack is depend on your opponents in the hand (SB 104 BB and BB 140 BB) that is what you can win.
18% 3 BET with 142 hands is not much to go on for 3 BET stat this might be inflated.

Calling with T8s against a huge 3 Bet from the SB with a BB that called is to loose for my taste as the effective stacks are not deep enough.

On flop raising all in seems reasonable to me you might have some fold equity against SB and BB and you can't fold on the turn against the SB if he bets again as your pot odds will be to good. Be aware that your fold equity against SB is limited as the SB only has to call 61.6 BB in a for him massive pot >180 BB (44.2 + 29 + 29 + 29 + 61.6 (not including his 61 BB)).

 

[PaxMundi]

The effective stack of the SB's is 104bb not 250bb and given the reads on the sb it's a fold pre for me the cold call is marginal at best any way.You say you open T8s but it looks like your cold calling an utg open from the c/o.

 

[Alexchen]

You have a 250 BB stack which is deep but your opponents do not have you covered so your effective stack is depend on your opponents in the hand (SB 104 BB and BB 140 BB) that is what you can win.
18% 3 BET with 142 hands is not much to go on for 3 BET stat this might be inflated.

Calling with T8s against a huge 3 Bet from the SB with a BB that called is to loose for my taste as the effective stacks are not deep enough.

On flop raising all in seems reasonable to me you might have some fold equity against SB and BB and you can't fold on the turn against the SB if he bets again as your pot odds will be to good. Be aware that your fold equity against SB is limited as the SB only has to call 61.6 BB in a for him massive pot >180 BB (44.2 + 29 + 29 + 29 + 61.6 (not including his 61 BB)).

Thx for the reply man. I did not consider the effective stack in that spot. So when he bet the flop I dont think there are a lot of fold equity unless SB is cbetting totally brick like AKo.

Yes calling the 3bet with T8s is too loose. When HU I definitely fold this hand. The BB marginal call give me good pot odd to realize my equity. Also, the game is juicy and I want to play more hands in position against this opponent since he is a keep-calling-looser.

The SB calls the all in and show KdQd which is in the top of his calling range. Even that I still have 53% equity against this specific hand. And we hold to the end and take down this huge pot.

 

[Alexchen]

The effective stack of the SB's is 104bb not 250bb and given the reads on the sb it's a fold pre for me the cold call is marginal at best any way.You say you open T8s but it looks like your cold calling an utg open from the c/o.

Agree that the BB is marginal to me. I like the way you say it is like calling the utg in the CO. The slight difference could be the BB calls give me pot odd and I close the action preflop. When HU I call 3bet 40% of my range and T8s is in the button of my CO open range.

 

[PaxMundi]

Agree that the BB is marginal to me. I like the way you say it is like calling the utg in the CO. The slight difference could be the BB calls give me pot odd and I close the action preflop. When HU I call 3bet 40% of my range and T8s is in the button of my CO open range.

The Big blind hasn't even entered my thought process at this point,utg raises you fold end of the hand.T8s is a marginal call vs utg from the c/o and with the small blind being a very active 3better it makes it an even clearer fold vs the utg raise.

 

[Ahoy]

If it wasnt an UTG call preflop but an open and then 3way call I would like it more. I still like it, you are IP and priced in for a call with hand that does not lose equity going multiway to the flop and has good nut potential and is unlikely to be dominated postflop /ie. you flop pair and villain also flops a pair and you are outkicked/. These hands have superb playability postflop. Calling is fine. If you know how to play draws however.

This is an example where you IMO misplayed your draw and the impotant factor that nobody even mentioned is that 1. you have showdown value /even though its not great since its a 3bet pot/ but you still can win against AK on the showdown if you get to the showdown
2. you have little to zero fold equity

Playing draws aggresively is effective because you can both hit your flush AND make them fold. Here, you are never making them fold. The original 3bettor is Cbetting into 2 people. His range is super strong here. Something like QQ+.

Also, you are in position which is super important. You are last to act. You could shove flop if you were OOP to deny your positional disadvantage on future streets but this is exactly a spot where you should be just flat calling all the time. You can flatcall flop definitely. Shoving is not a good option. You have shitloads of equity, and you are never getting called by worse if you shove, only by better.

Next time you are shoving ask yourself if you are shoving for value or as a bluff.
Here you dont need to shove for value. You can take the less variance route and just call it and see the turn. Remember, you are in control of the hand.
Calling is super profitable especially when the UTG guy calls = gives you great price.

You just threw away your positional advantage and shoved a draw into an uncapped range. This wont be the highest EV line you can take here This is a great flop for you and you can make massive profit by calling. If you hit your draw on the turn you can take all the money anyways as SB will be shoving most turns and even if he doesnt shove he cant really fold all of his overpairs and sets as he would be overfolding.

Good luck further mate! And you could post the results

 

[John A]

Effective stacks... hopefully this was a learning hand. You shouldn't be in this hand pre considering where the raise and call came from.

 

[Alexchen]

result posted

Posting result of this hand. Thank you all you guys for your opinions

Turn: (254.4 BB, 2 players) 8:heart:

River: (254.4 BB, 2 players) K:heart:

Hero shows 8:diamond: T:diamond: (Three of a Kind, Eights)
(Pre 34%, Flop 53%, Turn 84%)
SB shows K:diamond: Q:diamond: (Two Pair, Kings and Eights)
(Pre 66%, Flop 47%, Turn 16%)
Hero wins 242.4 BB

0.96 BB was deducted from the pot for the jackpot.

 

[Alexchen]

If it wasnt an UTG call preflop but an open and then 3way call I would like it more. I still like it, you are IP and priced in for a call with hand that does not lose equity going multiway to the flop and has good nut potential and is unlikely to be dominated postflop /ie. you flop pair and villain also flops a pair and you are outkicked/. These hands have superb playability postflop. Calling is fine. If you know how to play draws however.

This is an example where you IMO misplayed your draw and the impotant factor that nobody even mentioned is that 1. you have showdown value /even though its not great since its a 3bet pot/ but you still can win against AK on the showdown if you get to the showdown
2. you have little to zero fold equity

Playing draws aggresively is effective because you can both hit your flush AND make them fold. Here, you are never making them fold. The original 3bettor is Cbetting into 2 people. His range is super strong here. Something like QQ+.

Also, you are in position which is super important. You are last to act. You could shove flop if you were OOP to deny your positional disadvantage on future streets but this is exactly a spot where you should be just flat calling all the time. You can flatcall flop definitely. Shoving is not a good option. You have shitloads of equity, and you are never getting called by worse if you shove, only by better.

Next time you are shoving ask yourself if you are shoving for value or as a bluff.
Here you dont need to shove for value. You can take the less variance route and just call it and see the turn. Remember, you are in control of the hand.
Calling is super profitable especially when the UTG guy calls = gives you great price.

You just threw away your positional advantage and shoved a draw into an uncapped range. This wont be the highest EV line you can take here This is a great flop for you and you can make massive profit by calling. If you hit your draw on the turn you can take all the money anyways as SB will be shoving most turns and even if he doesnt shove he cant really fold all of his overpairs and sets as he would be overfolding.

Good luck further mate! And you could post the results

Thank you for your opinion dude.

In this hand the SB is an aggressor. I feel like he plans to go all in no matter what comes out on the turn board. If I call this hand, the pot will be very big and give me a good price to call the SB's shove. Then I will be in a tough spot such as the turn comes an A, J, or some other scary card, then my one middle pair is far more not enough to showdown and drawing for 1 card cost too much. Also, shoving here will deny the BB's equity, is it?

I like the way you think about playing flush draw with showdown value in position. The pot is just too big and to me the SB will shove no matter what he had then I will be in tough spot.

You are right I didn't think of this is a value shove or bluffing shove. At that time I thought my equity should be higher than 50% and this opponent could be bluffing according to his range. I am also representing I got a set or two pair which is very likely in my range. I hope I could be more aware of this value or bluffing shove concept.

 

[Vilgeoforc]

A rather marginal hand to call a 3-bet even in position. You have a combo draw on the flop, but I wouldn't play it aggressively. Call will help you to tighten the second player in the draw, you will be able to extract much more money on the turn and river

 

[pato1717]

Easy, fold preflop. Do the maths