$25 NLHE 6-max: Playing TPTK and pot control, how?

ZenAndPoker

ZenAndPoker

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
Total posts
19
Chips
0
This is Igniton Zone Poker so I have zero reads on villain.
NL Holdem $0.25(BB)
HERO(SB) ($39.4)
BTN ($32.3)

Dealt to Hero: A K

UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Raises To $0.75, HERO Raises To $2, BB Folds, BTN Calls $1.25

Hero SPR on Flop: [7.13 effective]
Flop ($4.25): 2 7 9
HERO Bets $2.62 (Rem. Stack: 34.78), BTN Calls $2.62 (Rem. Stack: 27.68)

Turn ($9.49): 2 7 9 K
HERO Bets $6.24 (Rem. Stack: 28.54), BTN Calls $6.24 (Rem. Stack: 21.44)

River ($21.97): 2 7 9 K Q
HERO Bets $10.98 (Rem. Stack: 17.56), BTN Raises To $21.44 (allin),

HERO?
HERO Calls $10.46 (Rem. Stack: 7.10)

BTN shows: T 9

HERO wins: $62.85

This is something I struggle with, controlling the size of pots while not appearing weak and simultaneously denying odds to draw against two pair, straights, and flushes. Especially when I hit with AK, I feel like I get way too overzealous about protecting my hand.

At the same time, having seen with my own eyes at this level of a play that a fair number of players will try to bluff you off a high card with lower pocket pairs like 99-QQ, or bluff the river if they missed their draw, or rep the draw if the scare card comes because they called all the way down with a lower pair and didn't catch two pair, it makes really hard for me to know when to fold sometimes against all but the nits and loose passives who rarely bluff.

I didn't have much time to decide in this case, it being zone poker and all, but something like a gut feeling based on how the hand played out from the beginning told me to call. I had a brief flash of terror that maybe he called me all the way down with KQ but I felt it would be negative EV to give unknown villain credit for KQ here too often. I thought a missed draw or a straight bluff made more sense, and I didn't really put him on a set the way he was just snap calling every street and never raising. Waiting to the river to make a move on a set on that board seems like a risk a lot of players at these tables don't usually take. Most players at micro-stakes here are trying to get all their money in on turn or flop, flop especially when there is a straight and a flush draw.

But, I REALLY HATE being in these kinds of positions with TPTK, too often I feel like I do run into better hands and end up often getting 4-1 odds or better to call, 5-1 in this case, that he might be straight bluffing here or trying to buy the pot with an underpair.

I hate losing whole stacks to playing TPTK too aggressive, building pots too big, then feeling like I'm committed to call because of the odds at the end. But I don't want to give opponents odds to draw on me or bluff shove because they sense I'm weak.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
It’s likely that you are not supposed to pot control here given it’s AK kind of top pair and from blinds and it's oop. So 2 reasons to go for big value and one to compensate position. I wonder what the other comments are.
 
C

Cstrick627

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
Total posts
1
Chips
0
So here’s my take. First let’s take stock of what you have and your position. First off you’re out of position and it’s going to be tough controlling a pot you’re betting into when there is someone to act after you. Next you’re still betting a drawing hand. In this situation the BTN bets and you then raise. I would have to ask why raise? You’re drawing and most likely so is the button. They’re going to open up with a wider range of possibilities and have the advantage of acting last. If you’re looking for pot control especially out of position and with a drawing hand I would have called the BTN’s initial raise and try to see the flop at a discount. After that with the pot smaller you after seeing the flop you should be able to make a better judgment call. Less money in the pot, you missed on the flop, plus if you bet you could get raised big then you’re really in trouble. To keep the pot smaller especially when you’re out of position and drawing I would absolutely call the pre-flop bet, check the flop, and if they bet fold. Sure you didn’t win anything but you didn’t lose big either. One thing you did learn from this situation even if you would have lost is the BTN will raise the action when in position even when drawing. So next time set a trap when you know you have the best hand especially post flop, incite a large raise by min raising or possibly check raising for max value. Hope this helps.
 
TenJack

TenJack

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Total posts
413
Chips
0
^^^ I don't get your argument for not 3-betting a class II hand? AK is premium, yeah it need to hit an A or a K to win, but that no reason to play passivley.

Flop bet is fine. Continuing on a dry board is usually a good idea.

Turn, fine by me.

River is an easy call due to pot odds and we hope to see KJ, AQ. Folding this would also be math heresy, if you did, i shall report you to the Vegas Inquisition, who shall burn you atop a pile of flaming dollars to purify your -EV soul! :D:D:D

At no point during this hand was pot control ever implemented and it never needed to be. Hands to play pot control with are baby flushes, small boats like deuces full, etc. Not TPTK.

Ps: the spoiler wouldn't open for me, i put him on a single pair hand with a draw like J9, T9, etc.
 
Last edited:
Hujiko

Hujiko

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Total posts
332
Awards
1
Chips
36
Fully agree with the line taken and would call the river.

Top pair top kicker is a good enough hand in this situation as there are no draws
 
TenJack

TenJack

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Total posts
413
Chips
0
Also, "pot control while not appearing weak and simultaneously denying odds to draw" is what i like to refer to as "The Mythic Solver Play". It is sorta like a duece-high flush.
 
ZenAndPoker

ZenAndPoker

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
Total posts
19
Chips
0
I would have to ask why raise?

^^^ I don't get your argument for not 3-betting a class II hand? AK is premium, yeah it need to hit an A or a K to win, but that no reason to play passivley.


@TenJack Yeah it was 10-9 offsuit. He didn't even have the flush draw.

@Cstrick627 Pretty much what TenJack said. I appreciate your perspective, I did ask how to control the pot, and you're correct if I don't want to have a big pot on a "drawing hand" like AK I probably shouldn't be 3-betting OOP.

That being said, I suppose after reading your response and others I want to have my cake and eat it too because I'm almost always going to 3-bet preflop with AK from any position and here are some reasons why:
  • Isolating the bettor. If there is more than one person to act behind me still, like in this case the BB, I want to isolate the bettor. AK is a great hand heads up post-flop, but in multi-way pots its equity goes down considerably. https://upswingpoker.com/multiway-pots-flop-bet-strategy/
  • Narrowing my opponents range. Does villain call raise with position or 4-bet? His response here and how he reacts on the flop will help narrow his range considerably in most cases.
  • Because AK in six handed-max tables is a great starting hand. I have considerable blocking strength against the only two hands I'm not a coin flip or better against, Aces and Kings, and if a flush draw comes for the ace or king of either of my cards I block some of my opponents flush drawing range here as well.
  • The chance to pick up the blinds and end the hand right there. Especially at these lower stakes, a large portion of the player-base is incredibly passive against 3-bets. Even more so in the format I was playing, fast fold. Fast fold poker, by its very nature, tightens even the loosest whales up. Many players at these low stakes play much too tightly in zoom, zone, fast fold, ect. poker and I'm going to exploit this every time pre-flop by widening both my open-raising range and 3-betting range. Obviously I want to do this more often with position than without.
  • And lastly, because this is so so often going to be just an attempt to steal the blinds by these players. The dynamics change a little when its folded to the button, and 6-max poker is all about heads up pots. Just flatting here and giving the BB, who will also have position on me after the flop, better odds to see a flop or come back over the top of the button pre-flop in an attempt to now steal a good sized pot right here and now, will put me in a tough spot, 5 betting would be crazy, and if I call I've now lost the initiative of the hand AND I'm OOP. Flatting from the SB is almost always -EV.
Are their times I won't always 3-bet kings preflop OOP? Yes. On a super loose-aggressive table where I know I'm likely to get more than 1-2 callers or even 4-bet, I may just flat with AK in the small blind. But to not 3-bet AK preflop in 6-max in most cases is asking for trouble.
 
ZenAndPoker

ZenAndPoker

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
Total posts
19
Chips
0
Also, "pot control while not appearing weak and simultaneously denying odds to draw" is what i like to refer to as "The Mythic Solver Play". It is sorta like a duece-high flush.


I'm feeling you. I think this was a case of wanting to have my cake and eat it too. I'm not going to not 3-bet AK against what I'm fairly positive is a blatant attempt to steal the blinds, nor am I not going to 3-bet preflop with position against anyone unless I know for a fact they only ever open-raise with Aces.

This is just my cognitive bias but I feel like in live games my TPTK is good way more often and I just hate ending up in spots online with huge pots on the river where my TPTK doesn't improve and now I'm facing committing my stack. Again, bias, I always feel like I run into the monster being slow-played here.

Obviously I'm wrong, since I just ran into someone trying to bluff me, and giving me 5-1 odds to call his bluff, which I'm almost always going to call here against all but the nittiest and even them sometimes too if something feels not right about the timing of their shove.

Thanks for reconfirming that I just need to suck it up, buttercup and either commit preflop to playing fit or fold, which is so -EV in the long run, or having biger pots on the flop with AK.
 
Hujiko

Hujiko

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Total posts
332
Awards
1
Chips
36
UTG Folds, HJ Folds, CO Folds, BTN Raises To $0.75, HERO Raises To $2, BB Folds, BTN Calls $1.25

Would 3 bet bigger btw. Now villain only has to call 1.25 extra 3.00 pot. OOP I would 3 bet to 4x in this case 3.00.
 
ZenAndPoker

ZenAndPoker

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
Total posts
19
Chips
0
Would 3 bet bigger btw. Now villain only has to call 1.25 extra 3.00 pot. OOP I would 3 bet to 4x in this case 3.00.


Yeah I realized that immediately upon reviewing the hand. I should have raised more pre-flop.
 
Q

quant1986

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 22, 2018
Total posts
599
Awards
1
Chips
2
Agree should 3bet larger preflop and could get opponent to fold weaker suited connector that play better IP.

As played, I don't see much issue and don't play 3bet HU pot passively. I could potentially add overbet range on the turn especially with Ah.
 
Alucard

Alucard

Santoryu
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2017
Total posts
3,235
Chips
0
imo it's a bluff catch on river
cause all the draws are dead & they'd fold vs a bet. Middle pair,3rd pair hands would fold probably as well. Only a very little value hands call here & the ones that beat us would jam > Assuming V is decent
So by check calling river we let busted draws bluff as well as not overpaying the hands that beat us.
 
TenJack

TenJack

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Total posts
413
Chips
0
imo it's a bluff catch on river
cause all the draws are dead & they'd fold vs a bet. Middle pair,3rd pair hands would fold probably as well. Only a very little value hands call here & the ones that beat us would jam > Assuming V is decent
So by check calling river we let busted draws bluff as well as not overpaying the hands that beat us.


Interesting, hadn't really thought like this. I think it is true for a different reason though. Beause villain is fairly short stack on the river, there isn't much bluff-jamming he can do simply because pot-odds are to favorable.

V. can still have a lot of middle pair, 2nd pair up to the river, just as that flop doesn't have a lot of big scare cards, v might believe up until turn that 98, T9 are good with a pair. In the turn, i would honestly expect him to dump his random dueces or 7s.

Also, if we decide to check call river, we will probably have to face a jam. Then we are in a really bad spot. Betting river makes it easier to call if we think he has bluffs, ever.
 
Alucard

Alucard

Santoryu
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2017
Total posts
3,235
Chips
0
Also, if we decide to check call river, we will probably have to face a jam. Then we are in a really bad spot. Betting river makes it easier to call if we think he has bluffs, ever.


not really cause after betting river, a decent V would never bluff jam cause there's no fold equity vs that size. Hero has 6:1 to call if he jams.
When we check it's unlikely many V's would jam here for value (pot size bet left), to get calls the'd likely bet under pot & most bluffs would do similar.
If V bluff jams we consider how the hand was played & where does our hand stands on the hero calling range. Not many hands that'd float this flop & hit the turn & river

When we go xc happy mode on river we get value out of bluffs & at the same time pay value hands full stack or lower
But when we bet, we fold out the busto draws & still pay the value hands the max cause we have to call the jam. > Assuming the V is decent. Not like this V obv

If this is the way the most players in the player pool plays (calling down 3rd pair 3streets/ jamming 3rd pair), then by all means go for max value

IMO
 
ZenAndPoker

ZenAndPoker

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 6, 2018
Total posts
19
Chips
0
imo it's a bluff catch on river
cause all the draws are dead & they'd fold vs a bet. Middle pair,3rd pair hands would fold probably as well. Only a very little value hands call here & the ones that beat us would jam > Assuming V is decent
So by check calling river we let busted draws bluff as well as not overpaying the hands that beat us.


I think in a lot of hands, you're probably right. In my experience, I'm beat on large all-in shoves on the river more often than not. Most GTO approaches I've read about calling large shoves on the river at micro-stakes go something like this:

Most micro-stakes players aren't bluffing the river nearly as often as they should be, and the ones that do bluff the river usually pick the wrong time to do it. This, according to GTO, makes calling large river bets -EV more often than not. My personal experience is anecdotal, but it does line up with this GTO approach.

I will say checking here is probably the less +EV move though than bet/fold.

The reason being the amount of times at the micros we will get called by passive calling-station villains playing worse top pair and mid pair hands here practically requires us to value bet in these situations. There may also be times we are betting strong draws from the flop that miss the turn and river and betting three streets against passive/weak players my generate some fold equity as well and actually get some nitty players to wrongly credit us with two pair or a set and lay down TPTK when our flush and straight draws miss.

If I just check here and villain picks up on my weakness/apprehension/desire to not want to pay anymore to see showdown but does decide to bluff by jamming pot, regardless of whether its a +EV move or not on his part, I'm now only getting 2-1 odds, which is, IMO, definitely -EV in the long run against the majority of this player pool. I really don't like looking up bluffs for less than 4-1, perhaps 3-1 if I have a tell or the players hud stats are extra fishy.

Being deep stacked would change everything, but as it were we started this hand each close to 150 BB.

In conclusion I think I should have bet more preflop, I think the turn bet was a good amount to charge drawing hands while giving incentive for worse hands like mid pair/TPLK in the hand to stay, and I think on the river I could have gone 1/3 pot bet and then if I get raised look at the odds being offered to call and folding for less than 4-1 unless I have a strong tell that villain is bluffing here.

Villian should be bluffing this river 33% of the time, in a perfect GTO world. That being said, micros are anything but GTO play, so its probably closer to 20-25% of the time at the micros I'll be getting bluffed here.
 
Hujiko

Hujiko

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Total posts
332
Awards
1
Chips
36
imo it's a bluff catch on river
cause all the draws are dead & they'd fold vs a bet. Middle pair,3rd pair hands would fold probably as well. Only a very little value hands call here & the ones that beat us would jam > Assuming V is decent
So by check calling river we let busted draws bluff as well as not overpaying the hands that beat us.


In retrospect I have to agree with Alucard. Check calling is a better line with top pair top kicker on the river in this specific situation as it is a 3 bet pot normally not many worse hands then your have a K in it and can call a bet. Or are people also over calling three bets from what I see on my level most people will not do so I see ~ 80% folds on three bets by most people.
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
80% fold from 40% gives a range 8%, more realistic 5NL 73% fold to 3bet from 37% range: 10%. I would assume 25NL most players are somewhat balanced pre.

Mike Gano's idea about calling range in this spot would look something like : (JJ)TT-77, AQs-A8s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QJo
 
Last edited:
Hujiko

Hujiko

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Total posts
332
Awards
1
Chips
36
80% fold from 40% gives a range 8%, more realistic 5NL 73% fold to 3bet from 37% range: 10%. I would assume 25NL most players are somewhat balanced pre.

Mike Gano's idea about calling range in this spot would look something like : (JJ)TT-77, AQs-A8s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QJo


Only thing I know is that they are totally unbalanced on 50NL full ring. Most of them are not stealing more then 30% from BTN and most 3 Bet lower then 6% on average even on steals and they fold about 80% against 3 bets. So that is 20% from 30% is lower then 6% on average where they call or raise a 3 bet with. Which gives ~ AQo+, AJs+, KQs, 88+ as there range. Now 6 Max may be different but I cant imagine that the range is as big as 10%. for 25NL.
 
Hujiko

Hujiko

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2018
Total posts
332
Awards
1
Chips
36
Have to correct myself it is closer to what Braveslice said then I expected so his range of 10% is about correct.
 
TenJack

TenJack

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Total posts
413
Chips
0
not really cause after betting river, a decent V would never bluff jam cause there's no fold equity vs that size. Hero has 6:1 to call if he jams.
When we check it's unlikely many V's would jam here for value (pot size bet left), to get calls the'd likely bet under pot & most bluffs would do similar.
If V bluff jams we consider how the hand was played & where does our hand stands on the hero calling range. Not many hands that'd float this flop & hit the turn & river

When we go xc happy mode on river we get value out of bluffs & at the same time pay value hands full stack or lower
But when we bet, we fold out the busto draws & still pay the value hands the max cause we have to call the jam. > Assuming the V is decent. Not like this V obv

If this is the way the most players in the player pool plays (calling down 3rd pair 3streets/ jamming 3rd pair), then by all means go for max value

IMO


Your math is waaaayyy wrong. If we check to v, his jam would be almost pot sized. so not 6-1 or whatever you said lol. I trust that you simply mis-typed that :D

Also you said th exact same thing that i said... maybe you misread my post, i said that the pot odds as played make it hard to bluff jam.
 
Alucard

Alucard

Santoryu
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2017
Total posts
3,235
Chips
0
Your math is waaaayyy wrong. If we check to v, his jam would be almost pot sized. so not 6-1 or whatever you said lol. I trust that you simply mis-typed that :D

Also you said th exact same thing that i said... maybe you misread my post, i said that the pot odds as played make it hard to bluff jam.


no my math is right. I meant as played. Hero bets 1/2 & V jams as played
as played bluff jamming by V doesn't make sense cause he has no fold equity. So the huge % of hands that'd jam there are nutted hands as played
 
TenJack

TenJack

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Total posts
413
Chips
0
Lol. for the 2nd time! :eek::eek: I understand! I was the one who pointed it out in the first place!!!

I quote myself here... "There isn't much bluff-jamming he can do simply because the pot odds are too favorable."

And again "... exact same thing i said... said that pot odds make it hard to bluff jam"

:top:


 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
not really cause after betting river, a decent V would never bluff jam cause there's no fold equity vs that size. Hero has 6:1 to call if he jams.

Yeah, this would be in my mind the only reason not to bet for value, we are effectively betting $10.98+$17.56 = 28.54$ ~1.3pot if we can’t fold to his AI.

How often he must call (with worse), so we can bet:
EVhecalls= %call_win*10.98, EVhefolds=0, EVheraises_loss=(1-%call_win)*28.54
=> %call_win = 72%

That is quite high number but still possible. I think not being able to fold might make pot control and thus check calling at least easier way to play this. So I’m ready to change my opinion more for check call line than bet line. The difference can’t be huge though. TenJack named his hand to precision though, so I would love him to elaborate a bit more.
 
Last edited:
TenJack

TenJack

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 29, 2018
Total posts
413
Chips
0
The way i got to that hand (T9s, J9s) starts out pre. A lot of players will squeeze with stuff like 98, 87 etc. as it can steal blinds, but also have decent equity when called. (You are rarely dominated with a hand like T9. I would then expexct him to 4-bet his premium hands such as AA, etc.

Flop, V should be raising (in a GTO world) with most of his overpairs, a lot of strong draws like Th8h, and sets/ 2 pair. What should he flat with? A hand like T9, J9 is a perfect candidate. Why?

A: You have some equity. top pair on this board is good often versus a 3-bet range, even out of the binds.
B: It is hard to realize your equity, even when you catch 2 pair, as your 2 pair cards can make straights for opponent.

We can eliminate a lot of Ax, Kx stuff that folds to the c-bet. He could still have a duece or a 7 but there aren't that many in his range.

On the turn, the king is going to scare out a lot of weakish pairs. So lets say he can either have a set, 2 pair, or a 9 or a king. I ask myself: Would i play this hand this way? Is this what i would do with XX?

I think i am value raising all day with sets here. Same with 97. He doesn't really have 72, 92 ever. So he know has either a king he peeled with, like KJ, or a 9. SO know we have it narrowed down to very few combos.

T9 is a fun hand in this spot. We have a pair and a good bluff when we don't hit out 2 pair card. Say a jack comes on the river. We don't have anything other than the 9, but we can rep a lot of QhTh, KJ stuff that was in our range. Wheras with a king, we have some showdown value. We don't want to turn it into a bluff, just because we could win sometimes without pushing opponent out, and we can't be sure if we are value betting.

I put him on a nine, there are only 4 kicker cards left after the first card (8,T,J,A), so i chose 2 and had a 50/50 shot of looking really cool lol.

I realize this is long, and some of it is basic, so sorry!
 
Top