$25 NLHE 6-max: Need some insights on River decision.

[Herakles]

Hi guys, I'm brand new here! Hoping to learn a thing or two! No idea how to convert Hand History since...there's no option to download Hand History other than an image form.


25nl - effective stacks 100bb


SB: Villian
BB: Hero


Action folded to Villian who raised to $0.75. Hero calls with AhTs.


Pot: $1.50
Flop: As5c2c


Villian checks, hero bets $0.80, Villian calls.


Turn: 5d


Villian checks, hero bets $1.85, Villian calls.


River: Qh


Villian checks, hero bets $3.65, Villian raises to $13.


Hero folds.


Now, in hindsight, I thought perhaps I should've checked the river with a marginal hand like ATo. It took me quite some time to actually fold, thinking villian's action doesn't quite make sense here. The Q was a brick to me since Villian wouldn't be playing QQ or AQ this way. Villian would've raised his 5x hands as well as he's pretty aggressive and I haven't seen him slowplaying his hands. No actual stats as no HUD allowed on the site but he's a reg and we've played each other for quite a decent amount of hands.


While I do think in hindsight I should've checked this river, I still think i can call in this situation given the possible hands Villian could have had here. No idea why I really folded though.


Note: Villian was pretty much tilting and increasing his raise freq after stacking off against me twice within 10mins.


Hoping someone can point me to the right play here.

 

[fundiver199]

I think, you basically overplayed your hand. You are supposedly betting for value, and as I wrote in another thread, then you need to consider, which worse hands he is checking on the flop and then calling 3 streets of betting with. I can not think of any, especially not when the board paired on the turn. So you need to check back here at some point, and then the check-raise will not happen, so your problem is solved. You could also 3-bet preflop. Blind vs. blind ranges are very wide, so your 3-betting range can be wider as well.

 

[Alucard]

QQ seems like the only reasonable hand to me to take this line
I'm flipping a coin at this spot, cosidering his history would still end up calling.
I'm fine with tripling for value here. prolly betting Turn larger & smaller on riv(not exactly sure about the sizing on river)
don't hate xb riv tho cause hard to take value from much else & likely be chopping a lot

 

[Sidetracked]

After reading Baluga Whale's ebook 'Easy Game' a few years ago, I started thinking of how many streets of value certain hands merited. I think both 2 and 3 streets could be argued here.

While blind vs blind ranges are much wider than other situations, I certainly don't hate a river check behind.

 

[gustav197poker]

What hands call a standard 3x open PFR, out of position from sb? Fundamentally combos of value (medium-low pockets) and speculative combos (suitable medium-impact connectors and medium-high broadways). Against that rank, the villain wants to keep those combos in the post flop. Because if villain make a cbet-flop, many of those combinations will fold and this will give he a long-term negative ev.
When you decide to bet on the flop, villain plays passive and calls. This is a signal that is protecting your range with some value. But again on the turn, he choose the line x / c.
The board is paired and your hand blocks some Ax combos in the range of the villain. However on the river, villain decides to increase your third barrel to 3.56x. This was a deep bet, considering the effective stack that is played, from spr less than 2 (after your bet).
At this point, if we say that villain plays wide, the Q protects us 77% of the time. This means that a wide range could turn his Ax into bluffs. And we will match the hand. From another perspective, we have a fairly fair decision, since we have put almost 1/3 of our stack in this hand.
If we believe that the villain is wide enough, we can protect our calling range on the river. Since the flush line on the board is not completed. But on the other hand, probably a 5x hand, could play this way on the river. So the wide range of sb could polarize between Ax, trips of 5, and combos of draws failed. Personally I think I would call this increase, if I consider that villain plays aggressive. But folding is also a correct option. Because we still don't get too committed with this boat.
Regards.

 

[Herakles]

I think, you basically overplayed your hand. You are supposedly betting for value, and as I wrote in another thread, then you need to consider, which worse hands he is checking on the flop and then calling 3 streets of betting with. I can not think of any, especially not when the board paired on the turn. So you need to check back here at some point, and then the check-raise will not happen, so your problem is solved. You could also 3-bet preflop. Blind vs. blind ranges are very wide, so your 3-betting range can be wider as well.

That's what I thought as well, but it was too late, hence, in hindsight. I'm just really confused with the river raise and the possible combos that could've done that.

I have a habit of taking temporary notes against regs who are basically tilting. I base this on their widening of opening range, their tendency to check-raise more often than usual, calling with more marginal hands and of course, their frequency to do the aforementioned within a short span of time. That was why I felt I could actually extract a thin value on this river but I guess I failed to consider that nothing worse really calls me at that point and should've checked back instead.

I'm just really confused with his big river raise here as I really don't see him check-calling a 5x hand on the flop especially in a SB v BB situation. Certainly not a AQ/QQ hand either given his aggressive playstyle. The only possible combo I can really think of, is A5 or 22 that would really check the flop there. I guess if he wasn't someone I've played often enough, I'd probably have checked behind on that river automatically instead of trying to extract such thin value and putting myself in such a situation

Thanks for your input though! At least that hand was a clear indication that I wasn't fully focused and I stopped playing shortly after.

 

[Herakles]

What hands call a standard 3x open PFR, out of position from sb? Fundamentally combos of value (medium-low pockets) and speculative combos (suitable medium-impact connectors and medium-high broadways). Against that rank, the villain wants to keep those combos in the post flop. Because if villain make a cbet-flop, many of those combinations will fold and this will give he a long-term negative ev.
When you decide to bet on the flop, villain plays passive and calls. This is a signal that is protecting your range with some value. But again on the turn, he choose the line x / c.
The board is paired and your hand blocks some Ax combos in the range of the villain. However on the river, villain decides to increase your third barrel to 3.56x. This was a deep bet, considering the effective stack that is played, from spr less than 2 (after your bet).
At this point, if we say that villain plays wide, the Q protects us 77% of the time. This means that a wide range could turn his Ax into bluffs. And we will match the hand. From another perspective, we have a fairly fair decision, since we have put almost 1/3 of our stack in this hand.
If we believe that the villain is wide enough, we can protect our calling range on the river. Since the flush line on the board is not completed. But on the other hand, probably a 5x hand, could play this way on the river. So the wide range of sb could polarize between Ax, trips of 5, and combos of draws failed. Personally I think I would call this increase, if I consider that villain plays aggressive. But folding is also a correct option. Because we still don't get too committed with this boat.
Regards.

First of all, thanks for your thorough input! I guess I couldn't really convince myself that a reg like him would be making such a weird play with busted draws and therefore, made the decision to just fold.

 

[moulan7]

Hi there,

Preflop you could 3bet him because of the wide range that SB opens against BB. And more than often the hand will end here.
Not that I'm doing that with ATo xD but just saying.

Flop. Here sometimes I prefer to check back with the intention to provoke a bet from him on the turn and the river. The hand will go check/call/call.
Other times I bet like you did.
In my mind he doesn't hold an Ace, but since he chose to check call I'm a bit of suspicious.

Turn. Another 5. I don't like it lol. I could check back here with the intention to call a river bet.
Of course if he holds any pocket pair we lose value by checking back, but again many of those will not call a bet and they might try to bet the river.
But again, I don't mind your bet. It's pretty fine.

River. No flush card.
Now I know that there's a thin line between value betting and losing value with marginal holdings.
Here the best scenario if someone calls you is too split the pot and lose more money the both of you because of the rake xD.
He can have something like KQc but he will not call you. No without an Ace, any Ace. But I can't believe that he has an Ace unless it's A5.
I always check back here. No reason to bet even if it will end up to lose value sometimes.
He called two streets. No draws have made it. There is the possibility of a split (unlikely but there is). Only better hands will call or, even worse, will raise us.

His holding, given this line can be anything like 45s, 56, 57s, 58s, 5Xs, AA xD, 22, QQ.
If he bluffs good for him. He won.
Again, check the river, the hand is over.

 

[Casey55]

I think it was a check on the river, you had a marginal made hand, you got good profit on the first two streets and he may have Ax higher kicker which would explain the shove on the river if he held AQ. I don't know if I would bet 3-streets of value with marginal made hand. On the river what can he even call with? hes not calling with a busted flushdraw, so then he has Ax, trip 5's or a boat with AA or QQ. theres no worse hands we can get value from besides weaker Ax which would probably just call you here.I think even hands like JJ,TT,99 are folding because of the Q on the river. interesting hand thanks for posting it. All the best.

 

[Herakles]

I think it was a check on the river, you had a marginal made hand, you got good profit on the first two streets and he may have Ax higher kicker which would explain the shove on the river if he held AQ. I don't know if I would bet 3-streets of value with marginal made hand. On the river what can he even call with? hes not calling with a busted flushdraw, so then he has Ax, trip 5's or a boat with AA or QQ. theres no worse hands we can get value from besides weaker Ax which would probably just call you here.I think even hands like JJ,TT,99 are folding because of the Q on the river. interesting hand thanks for posting it. All the best.

Yeah, I made a mistake of thinking I could extract thin value from someone who I noted as being tilted at that time. As a result, I quickly identified I wasn't fully focused and stopped my session shortly after. I still however, can't seem to be convinced that he may have had AQ/QQ due to his overall playstyle and his flop action or any Ax hands at all, save and except A5 which may explain the flop check. Thanks btw, at least by posting this hand, I'll be remembering my basics again

Hi there,

Preflop you could 3bet him because of the wide range that SB opens against BB. And more than often the hand will end here.
Not that I'm doing that with ATo xD but just saying.

Flop. Here sometimes I prefer to check back with the intention to provoke a bet from him on the turn and the river. The hand will go check/call/call.
Other times I bet like you did.
In my mind he doesn't hold an Ace, but since he chose to check call I'm a bit of suspicious.

Turn. Another 5. I don't like it lol. I could check back here with the intention to call a river bet.
Of course if he holds any pocket pair we lose value by checking back, but again many of those will not call a bet and they might try to bet the river.
But again, I don't mind your bet. It's pretty fine.

River. No flush card.
Now I know that there's a thin line between value betting and losing value with marginal holdings.
Here the best scenario if someone calls you is too split the pot and lose more money the both of you because of the rake xD.
He can have something like KQc but he will not call you. No without an Ace, any Ace. But I can't believe that he has an Ace unless it's A5.
I always check back here. No reason to bet even if it will end up to lose value sometimes.
He called two streets. No draws have made it. There is the possibility of a split (unlikely but there is). Only better hands will call or, even worse, will raise us.

His holding, given this line can be anything like 45s, 56, 57s, 58s, 5Xs, AA xD, 22, QQ.
If he bluffs good for him. He won.
Again, check the river, the hand is over.

I guess I could actually 3bet. I normally pick my spots when 3betting light against regs. Usually don't do it when I find the reg being a little off and playing a little more aggressively and would instead call and hope for mistakes to happen postflop or find an exploit. But I guess I outplayed myself and got exploited instead lol.

 

[moulan7]

Hahahaha true.

Yeah I agree about your strat here, this is why I often check back on flop, hoping that he will make bets on later street and hopefully I 'll win.
But by betting you give him little chances for mistakes. He can just fold.

 

[fundiver199]

As for the river decision after betting and getting raised, I think, its a fold. Whenever we were value betting with a hand, that maybe should have checked back, we are per definition near the bottom of our range, since our only worse hands will be bluffs. And if we end up folding to much, it was a result of betting to light, so the way to patch our possible leak is to bet less.

Also I just dont see, what he is bluffing with? Sure there is a missed flush draw, but most people would C-bet their flush draws on the flop and barrel the turn. QQ makes sense, and 5X also makes a decent amount of sense, so I think, he is skewed towards value here. We are out of the micros at 25NL, but I still think, there is some truth to the following statement from the book Crushing the Microstakes: "A raise on the turn is usually the nuts, a raise on the river is always the nuts".

 

[Herakles]

Hahahaha true.

Yeah I agree about your strat here, this is why I often check back on flop, hoping that he will make bets on later street and hopefully I 'll win.
But by betting you give him little chances for mistakes. He can just fold.

I don't think there's any other way but to bet the flop in this situation tbh. I don't think anyone would check that flop in that situation.

As for the river decision after betting and getting raised, I think, its a fold. Whenever we were value betting with a hand, that maybe should have checked back, we are per definition near the bottom of our range, since our only worse hands will be bluffs. And if we end up folding to much, it was a result of betting to light, so the way to patch our possible leak is to bet less.

Also I just dont see, what he is bluffing with? Sure there is a missed flush draw, but most people would C-bet their flush draws on the flop and barrel the turn. QQ makes sense, and 5X also makes a decent amount of sense, so I think, he is skewed towards value here. We are out of the micros at 25NL, but I still think, there is some truth to the following statement from the book Crushing the Microstakes: "A raise on the turn is usually the nuts, a raise on the river is always the nuts".

I haven't read that book, but it's pretty close to the truth! At stakes as low as what I'm playing, people don't tend to get super fancy on the river.

And yeah, don't think there's much he can be bluffing with here except that missed FD. The more I think about the hand the more I believe folding was the only right play there.

Thanks alot guys! You guys have been extremely helpful!

 

[moulan7]

I don't think there's any other way but to bet the flop in this situation tbh. I don't think anyone would check that flop in that situation.

Thanks alot guys! You guys have been extremely helpful!

Me xD. I'm all tricks xD. Will you bet with weak holdings if I check?

Edit: of course I always bet if I identify the villain as a weak calling station, otherwise yeah I check a lot mixing things up. Maybe it's a leak but I can't resist xD

 

[c0rnBr34d]

As for the river decision after betting and getting raised, I think, its a fold. Whenever we were value betting with a hand, that maybe should have checked back, we are per definition near the bottom of our range, since our only worse hands will be bluffs. And if we end up folding to much, it was a result of betting to light, so the way to patch our possible leak is to bet less.

Also I just dont see, what he is bluffing with? Sure there is a missed flush draw, but most people would C-bet their flush draws on the flop and barrel the turn. QQ makes sense, and 5X also makes a decent amount of sense, so I think, he is skewed towards value here. We are out of the micros at 25NL, but I still think, there is some truth to the following statement from the book Crushing the Microstakes: "A raise on the turn is usually the nuts, a raise on the river is always the nuts".

Semi grunch but I'm not sure how competent our V is here and I think that matters a lot when deciding to fold this river as played. With this runout I think Hero's hand is pretty face up. We just flatted pre so we never have AK and probably not AQ either. We are repping AJ- almost every time (and really should be 3 betting AT+ IMO but that's a different discussion). V could turn all of his Ax into bluffs here on the river and be fairly certain that he's chopping if called and scooping a ton as well. V also could play 22, 55, A5 this way. QQ should not have made it to the river.

I also prefer checking back river since I only expect to be called by hands that chop (meaning we just pay more rake) or beat me.

 

[TheDude6622]

This is one of those cases where there's still a lot of hands that beat us, but we have a ton of showdown value. We must check back the river and see the other hand.

 

[ZeZe2005]

maybe you can justify calling here because he can have lots of missed flushes that give you some equity in this situation and with the pot odds you are getting (being right on your call 1 out of 3 times give you a slight profit) it seems like calling is the best play against a lot of players