$25 NL HE Full Ring: 30NL baby flush facing raise

[Station_Master]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.10/$.25

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

Currency

$

UTG: $33.16 (111 bb)
UTG+1: $31.61 (105 bb)
MP: $30.00 (100 bb)
MP+1: $37.42 (125 bb)
LP: $14.10 (47 bb)
CO: $30.00 (100 bb)
BU: $27.00 (90 bb)
SB: $20.99 (70 bb)
BB (Hero): $47.38 (158 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.45) Hero is BB with 6♠ 5♠
2 players fold, MP raises to $0.90, 2 players fold, CO calls $0.90, BTN calls $0.90, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.60

Seemed like a standard spot to call with an implied odds hand, the callers both seemed a bit fishy so I didn't fancy squeezing and getting multiple callers. The original raiser seemed like a reg so I expected a strong range from early position.

Flop: ($3.75) 8♣ Q♠ K♠ (4 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $2.06, CO calls $2.06, BU folds, Hero calls $2.06

A big cbet multiway by the preflop agressor, I'm expecting a strong range so seemed like call was the best play

Turn: ($9.93) 7♣ (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO checks

I turn a 15 out megadraw though only 3 outs to the nuts, I contemplate a check raise depending on the action but it checks through

River: ($9.93) 3♠ (3 players)
Hero bets $3.87, MP folds, CO raises to $16.56,

I hit the flush draw and decide on a small sizing based on the fact there could be bigger flushes out there and I want a K or Q to make the crying call. I only had about 4 hands on the CO but he was shaping up to be a bit fishy . This was a tough decision.

Thoughts on whether this is a call or fold, plus previous streets?

 

[gustav197poker]

If I suspect the opener is a competent regular I may look for a better spot, especially in MWB. But if I decide to play I would just call, as I don't think there is significant value in to make 3-bet in this spot. The flop is pretty wet and I don't expect that worse draws to call the continuation bet. Here I would be folding if I did not before.
The turn is standard and opener's check would is a bit strange to me. If he wanted to protect his hand on the flop because he didn't continue with a second barrel.
The river completes the third spade and here block bet seems correct. And when CO raise +4x I'm not happy calling since I hardly win any flush draws that may have floated earlier and furthermore, I would have to assume that the V has a ton of bluffs in his range. I honestly wouldn't run into this bluff catcher OTR.
Greetings.

 

[Station_Master]

If I suspect the opener is a competent regular I may look for a better spot, especially in MWB. But if I decide to play I would just call, as I don't think there is significant value in to make 3-bet in this spot. The flop is pretty wet and I don't expect that worse draws to call the continuation bet. Here I would be folding if I did not before.
The turn is standard and opener's check would is a bit strange to me. If he wanted to protect his hand on the flop because he didn't continue with a second barrel.
The river completes the third spade and here block bet seems correct. And when CO raise +4x I'm not happy calling since I hardly win any flush draws that may have floated earlier and furthermore, I would have to assume that the V has a ton of bluffs in his range. I honestly wouldn't run into this bluff catcher OTR.
Greetings.

Thanks for the reply. I'm surprised you think it's a fold pre, certainly without the calls this is a defend, with calls I still think it is. It is not necessarily the case that I am against a better flush draw on the flop, so with pot odds I called, i would expect initial opener to have Kx alot and the caller to have K,Q or draw. Particularly with the K and Q on the board it cuts the number of flush draws.

Are you saying on river you expect villain to be bluffing? AQ with A spades, it's possible. I thought it looked like the nut flush alot so folded.

 

[gustav197poker]

Thanks for the reply. I'm surprised you think it's a fold pre, certainly without the calls this is a defend, with calls I still think it is. It is not necessarily the case that I am against a better flush draw on the flop, so with pot odds I called, i would expect initial opener to have Kx alot and the caller to have K,Q or draw. Particularly with the K and Q on the board it cuts the number of flush draws.

Are you saying on river you expect villain to be bluffing? AQ with A spades, it's possible. I thought it looked like the nut flush alot so folded.

In a limp pot I am defending with 65s. In MWB I could do it in a multi ways pot raise but I mostly fold when I'm in first position postflop.
On the river and without more info I don't think V has many bluffs to make a profitable call.

 

[loafaBREAD]

CO x'd the turn behind, which implies he has some showdown value (here maybe ace-high).

Yea, and V has no bluffs so fold. NH

 

[John A]

Any stats on CO? He obviously either has a flush draw or TJ on the turn. Your river sizing is going to increase his bluffing range a lot. So at this point it's kind of a toss up based on combos. It really comes down to his stats and the likelihood he's bluffing w/ the whiffed straight draw.

 

[Station_Master]

Any stats on CO? He obviously either has a flush draw or TJ on the turn. Your river sizing is going to increase his bluffing range a lot. So at this point it's kind of a toss up based on combos. It really comes down to his stats and the likelihood he's bluffing w/ the whiffed straight draw.

Not at the time only 4 hands, at the time I thought he might be fishy but later his stats were like a reg. Good point about straight draws I was thinking his bluffs would be stuff like AQo with A of spades, either way I still think there are plenty of nut flush combos (at least 6 or 7) and he may not bluff his missed straight draws or other A spades hands. I thought for the sizing in particular it would be underbluffed.
I still think I prefer the small bet to check call as we never get any value from K by checking and hopefully we lost less to the nut flush than we would have by check calling (but of course I could have been bluffed off the best hand)

 

[Aballinamion]

UTG: $33.16 (111 bb)
UTG+1: $31.61 (105 bb)
MP: $30.00 (100 bb)
MP+1: $37.42 (125 bb)
LP: $14.10 (47 bb)
CO: $30.00 (100 bb)
BU: $27.00 (90 bb)
SB: $20.99 (70 bb)
BB (Hero): $47.38 (158 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.45) Hero is BB with 6♠ 5♠
2 players fold, MP raises to $0.90, 2 players fold, CO calls $0.90, BTN calls $0.90, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.60

Seemed like a standard spot to call with an implied odds hand, the callers both seemed a bit fishy so I didn't fancy squeezing and getting multiple callers. The original raiser seemed like a reg so I expected a strong range from early position.

Flop: ($3.75) 8♣ Q♠ K♠ (4 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $2.06, CO calls $2.06, BU folds, Hero calls $2.06

A big cbet multiway by the preflop agressor, I'm expecting a strong range so seemed like call was the best play

Turn: ($9.93) 7♣ (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, CO checks

I turn a 15 out megadraw though only 3 outs to the nuts, I contemplate a check raise depending on the action but it checks through

River: ($9.93) 3♠ (3 players)
Hero bets $3.87, MP folds, CO raises to $16.56,

I hit the flush draw and decide on a small sizing based on the fact there could be bigger flushes out there and I want a K or Q to make the crying call. I only had about 4 hands on the CO but he was shaping up to be a bit fishy . This was a tough decision.

Thoughts on whether this is a call or fold, plus previous streets?

It would be a fold on the river. Unless you have very special information, and in this case, you haven’t. If CO is bluffing some busted Spade, good for it, let it take the pot.
Plus, having dominated hands like baby flushes I tend to play more passively, and wouldn’t have made a bet OOP, because if Villain raises, as it did, I would be in a very embarrassing moment and sometimes I will call because of the shame of folding, since I was the one who started to make the pot grows.
It is clear by the board configuration that Hero doesn’t hold AsQs or AsKs, because these cards are on the flop and because we would’ve raised/squeezes them preflop.
It is possible that Hero also doesn’t hold AsXs, for example As4s, As5s, because these aces would also have squeezed preflop trying to eliminate one of the players to a heads-up pot.
When we do call here our range is capped to a bunch of pocket pairs and suited connectors, so, when you do make a bet on the river, do you really expect to get calls from TPTK, Two Pair, Sets or Straights? If you did, nice move but you have played only 4 hands versus villain...
The preflop call was awesome, and we have called later, giving information once more that we are not so good or waiting to complete draws.
I would have checked OOP and wait for villain to do a bet that I have odds/price to pay, otherwise I would’ve fold.

 

[fundiver199]

I think, the first 3 streets are pretty standard, and I agree with your comments about them. Maybe we can fold pre, but that seems very nitty to me. When he raise the river, he is clearly representing a flush, and unfortunately you have the nut low flush. Ok there is 42 of spades, but he most likely dont call that pre, its only one combo, and even if he had it, its not strong enough to raise the river for value. So you only beat a bluff, and then of course it comes down to, how often we think, this guy is bluffing.

As John A say, the most logical bluff is JT, and if he only call pre with JTs, thats only 3 combos. Software most likely want us to call here, but that is of course assuming a balanced opponent, who find enough bluffs. Which might include turning some one pair hands into a bluff. Like maybe KJ with the J of spades. If he "seem fishy", is he likely to be doing that? Or is it more likely, he has, exactly what it looks like, he has: A better flush? I think, we can make a slightly exploitable fold here.

 

[fundiver199]

Not at the time only 4 hands, at the time I thought he might be fishy but later his stats were like a reg.

If he was essentially an unknown, then we should be more inclined to call a river raise. This is not a microstakes game, and there are definitely people, who will run a bluff with the naked ace of spades. Hands like AJ or AT with it makes a decent amount of sense. Part of the reason, why software generally call with any flush, is blockers. If his value range is mainly the nut flush, then having a flush ourselfes knock out two value combos (in this case A6 and A5 of spades), while he can still have all the bluffs.

 

[rastapapolos]

There are a lot of bluff on this wet board, JT, AJ, T9, backdoor clubs... As you have the 5 of spade and the river is 3 of spade we can remove two combo from his preflop calling range A5, A3. If he holds (AJ, AT) of spade and if he's competent I do think that he raises the flop with the nuts flush draw + a straight draw. He could call with the A of spade and planning to bluff river.
You induced the bluff by betting a litle more than 1/3 pot OTR, so in your shoes I'm calling river as I have the flush but also to take note on villain.

 

[Station_Master]

There are a lot of bluff on this wet board, JT, AJ, T9, backdoor clubs... As you have the 5 of spade and the river is 3 of spade we can remove two combo from his preflop calling range A5, A3. If he holds (AJ, AT) of spade and if he's competent I do think that he raises the flop with the nuts flush draw + a straight draw. He could call with the A of spade and planning to bluff river.
You induced the bluff by betting a litle more than 1/3 pot OTR, so in your shoes I'm calling river as I have the flush but also to take note on villain.

If he was essentially an unknown, then we should be more inclined to call a river raise. This is not a microstakes game, and there are definitely people, who will run a bluff with the naked ace of spades. Hands like AJ or AT with it makes a decent amount of sense. Part of the reason, why software generally call with any flush, is blockers. If his value range is mainly the nut flush, then having a flush ourselfes knock out two value combos (in this case A6 and A5 of spades), while he can still have all the bluffs.

Interesting you both see it quite different to me. I was unsure if it should be a call and folded. Yes I know villain could be bluffing but I really think there are more value combos than bluffs.

In game I only really thought of AQ with the A of spades. As others mentioned JT is a possibility but I wouldn't expect a cold caller to have JTo and so he would have to be bluffing one of the three other combos without a spade.

AJ and AT seem really wide should he really be calling a big flop bet with a gutshot and bdfd with two players yet to act? It's a genuine question as I am not sure but I hadn't included those in his range as I thought this type of hand would fold on the flop (plus ATo is loose pre).

I saw the value combos as AJs, ATs, A9s, A8s and A3s (maybe A7s and A2s) and they would all play this way if they got to the river this way (recognising they could be raised earlier), potentially JTs even raises though I think it would be thin. So maybe 5 or 6 hands v 3 bluffs if all AQ with A spades raises but there could be more. Maybe I am just about getting the pot odds to call, but I get concerned that alot of villains would not go for the bluff at 30NL.

I thought a small block bet was a good size pop and one I would take with better flushes too to get villains to call with non flushes. Obviously it's always the worry that it induces, but I think it's better than a check and potentially losing value or a large bet. I think most who have commented prefer a check though...

 

[fundiver199]

AJ and AT seem really wide should he really be calling a big flop bet with a gutshot and bdfd with two players yet to act? It's a genuine question as I am not sure but I hadn't included those in his range as I thought this type of hand would fold on the flop (plus ATo is loose pre).

This is a fair point, and most likely these hands should not be called on the flop with two more players left to act.

I saw the value combos as AJs, ATs, A9s, A8s and A3s (maybe A7s and A2s) and they would all play this way if they got to the river this way (recognising they could be raised earlier)

Yes this is the other side of the coin. While suited aces could be played like this, we also need to ask, if this guy does not have any 3-betting range, because if he does, it should contain a fair amount of suited aces. Maybe solvers use a mixed strategy, but we cant realistically say, that all the suited aces are 100% in his flatting range preflop. Postflop it is pretty common though to take a passive line with the nut flushdraw, and maybe even more here due to the multiway nature of the pot.

I thought a small block bet was a good size pop and one I would take with better flushes too to get villains to call with non flushes. Obviously it's always the worry that it induces, but I think it's better than a check and potentially losing value or a large bet. I think most who have commented prefer a check though...

I dont think, your sizing was that small. Admittedly I am a tournament player, so I am used to smaller bet sizes, but I would not call 40% pot a blocker size, that is going to induce raises. All in all I think, this is a very marginal spot, and I dont think, folding can ever be that bad. It would be more of a call in a heads-up pot against the preflop raiser, than it is here in a multiway pot against a field caller. Because as you say, for him to continue on the flop, he really should have either a strong made hand or a good draw. So when the main draw got there, and he suddenly wakes up with a raise on the river, it is pretty likely, that he has it.

 

[Station_Master]

This is a fair point, and most likely these hands should not be called on the flop with two more players left to act.

Yes this is the other side of the coin. While suited aces could be played like this, we also need to ask, if this guy does not have any 3-betting range, because if he does, it should contain a fair amount of suited aces. Maybe solvers use a mixed strategy, but we cant realistically say, that all the suited aces are 100% in his flatting range preflop. Postflop it is pretty common though to take a passive line with the nut flushdraw, and maybe even more here due to the multiway nature of the pot.

I dont think, your sizing was that small. Admittedly I am a tournament player, so I am used to smaller bet sizes, but I would not call 40% pot a blocker size, that is going to induce raises. All in all I think, this is a very marginal spot, and I dont think, folding can ever be that bad. It would be more of a call in a heads-up pot against the preflop raiser, than it is here in a multiway pot against a field caller. Because as you say, for him to continue on the flop, he really should have either a strong made hand or a good draw. So when the main draw got there, and he suddenly wakes up with a raise on the river, it is pretty likely, that he has it.

Agreed I think against the original raiser it's a call as there are more natural bluffs, but v the field caller (and for a big size) a fold.

 

[kostja007]

That's a tough decision. In multiway pots I would be cautious. I think your play is ok till river. Raising the river to bluff 2 players is really rarely on theses limits. AsT or AsJ is good bluffing candidate of course. But I think playerpool will underbluff here. There are no other flushes you will beat. So fold seems to be good.

 

[Highfish]

Just another thought. With such a strong combo draw I would donk bet big into those 2 players and get committed. If your plan was to check/raise you would be committed anyway. Also you have the chance to win the pot immediately.
If your donk bet gets called or raised you have a simple decision to call off or shove the river.

 

[fundiver199]

Just another thought. With such a strong combo draw I would donk bet big into those 2 players and get committed. If your plan was to check/raise you would be committed anyway. Also you have the chance to win the pot immediately.
If your donk bet gets called or raised you have a simple decision to call off or shove the river.

I suppose you mean on the turn, because on the flop Hero just had a flushdraw. I dont think, leading the turn is a great play in this spot. Its highly likely, at least one opponent has top pair or better, or a good draw, and then they are not folding to a turn donk on a complete brick like 7c. Also while Hero have a 15 out combodraw, the outs are not clean. Someone else could have a better flushdraw, and if Hero is against a better flushdraw and a made hand like top pair, he is really only drawing to 6 outs to a straight. And even these are not clean, since a 9 will make JT a better straight, and thats also a hand, someone could very easily have. So I think, the play on the turn is to check and evaluate. I am not crazy about donk leading, and to be honest even less about check-raising, which was Heros plan.