200NL: QQ vs semi-nit

blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
Joined
May 16, 2006
Total posts
6,129
figured i'd look through my PT database for hands to post

villain is 18/14/1.83, on the tighter side of TAG, doesn't seem bad. i've seen him 3bet once in 50 or so hands, and it took the pot down pre.

i was probably about 24/20/3 for the session, TAGish

anyone taking a different PF line or flop line?

fulltiltpoker Game #3515230440: Table Cliffrose (6 max) - $1/$2 - No Limit Hold'em
Seat 1: combuboom ($230)
Seat 2: br000se ($40)
Seat 3: womenarethings ($202)
Seat 4: JDESQ1995 ($240.85)
Seat 5: boilermanbob ($139.90)
Seat 6: RBud ($169.05)
boilermanbob posts the small blind of $1
RBud posts the big blind of $2
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to combuboom [Qh Qd]
combuboom raises to $7
br000se folds
womenarethings folds
JDESQ1995 has 15 seconds left to act
JDESQ1995 raises to $28
boilermanbob folds
RBud folds
combuboom calls $21
*** FLOP *** [7s 7d 6h]
combuboom checks
JDESQ1995 bets $48
combuboom raises to $202, and is all in
 
Blazing_Saddler

Blazing_Saddler

Rock Star
Joined
Aug 15, 2007
Total posts
214
Not really sure about pushing all the money in like that to be honest. Guess if he has JJ he may call. More often that not, only a better hand is going to call you there
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Maybe another raise preflop to $75 or $80 and if he calls I'm trying to get to a showdown as cheaply as possible. When you went all-in after the flop what are you putting him on? I really think you are behind here more often than not.

I guess I should mention here that I suck at ring games, so ignoring everything I have said is probably best. :)
 
J

jeffred1111

Visionary
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Total posts
792
Standard, if he has AA or KK so be it but I would have played it the same since this is about the most non scary flop ever (he won't reraise with 77 or with a 6 since he is so tight). TT+ are calling you here and I can see some AK calling here if he has you as someone capable of doing this with air.

What about repopping pre (i personally like flatting more) ? What is our line if he pushes ?
 
J

jeffred1111

Visionary
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Total posts
792
Maybe another raise preflop to $75 or $80 and if he calls I'm trying to get to a showdown as cheaply as possible. When you went all-in after the flop what are you putting him on? I really think you are behind here more often than not.

This will be impossible to do most of the times since the pot will be a huge bloated monster + any bet is going to be pot committing and it won't be easy to get away from it if an A or a K flops. Because, really, what is the benifit of reraising preflop ? What is our line if he pushes ?

And a reraise preflop from a TAG OTB doesn't mean AA or KK everytime. I will reraise 99+, AQo+ in this spot too (and some combos of suited connectors) since I'll have position on the UTG player and I want to isolate. Combu has the image of a tagish player, but he still is semi-loose/AG at 24/20 (not tight, not loose) and this is 6-max: UTG raise can be KQs or AJs with these stats. Ranges are broader than in FR.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
I didn't even notice that it was 6-max. In that case I suck even more (hey at least I know it). But because it's 6-max and the villain is only 18/14, I think there is even more of a chance that you're behind here and are only getting calls from a hand that beats you.
 
J

jeffred1111

Visionary
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Total posts
792
I play around 20/18 6-max and it's because I'm very, very tight UTG and UTG +1 but my range opens up when OTB. There are more combos of AK + AQ, TT-JJ that raise OTB plus c-bet this when checked to than AA or KK wich means it's a shove for me with QQ. 18/14 sure is tight, but our stack is going in anyway unless we fold here (???), so we're better off stacking off here with the added FE + not allowing villain to see a A or K turn/river.

C/shove is fine here if we intend to get it AI anyway. Only thing I don't like is villain checking behind with AK, KQ but really, this won't happen against this TAG.
 
vanquish

vanquish

Legend
Joined
Apr 26, 2007
Total posts
12,000
I'm afraid we're losing value from JJ and TT here possibly (maybe even 99 if he 3-bets it in position), but we don't want him to shut down after a scary turn, so we might as well stick it in now I guess.
 
J

joeeagles

Guest
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Total posts
1,114
For PF, you're OOP so a case can be made to 4bet, because the c/shove line on flops with no A or K may not work if he checks behind. I still like the flat call of the 3-bet better, first of all because 4 betting will fold out hands like JJ, TT, 99 and 2nd of all in most cases a c-bet will come from OR on almost any flop. So flat calling will give you extra value from hands that are WB because you at least get their c-bet, and it also limits your losses because if you're up against AK and an A or K comes on the flop you can get away from this at some point without getting stacked.

On the flop it looks pretty standard to me. Shoving is the right move. It's very early in the hand so you really can't narrow down his range, it's still 99+, AQs+ for a TAG. Some of those hands that you're crushing will call, some won't, but you can't wait any longer. Flat calling will make hands like JJ, TT nervous anyway, you probably have a better chance of stacking them by shoving rather than just calling. Hands like AK, when they get called here, might just shut down when they don't improve on the next 2 streets because, again, the call is scarier than the shove. That's not to say AK will call this shove every time, but even a small % of times makes it more +EV than calling the $48.

Another thing is that calling the flop rather than shoving puts you 38 BB's deep with a starting stack of 115 BB's, making it really hard (although not yet impossible) to get away from this on the next street whatever card comes. Even if the turn brings a K, you don't have an easy fold because your hand has showdown value, so it's best to just stick it in here now. If he has AA or KK its just a cooler. Given that he's on the tighter side of TAG, you can't really put him on 87s type of hands even if his 3bet came from the button.
 
J

jeffred1111

Visionary
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Total posts
792
For PF, you're OOP so a case can be made to 4bet, because the c/shove line on flops with no A or K may not work if he checks behind. I still like the flat call of the 3-bet better, first of all because 4 betting will fold out hands like JJ, TT, 99 and 2nd of all in most cases a c-bet will come from OR on almost any flop. So flat calling will give you extra value from hands that are WB because you at least get their c-bet, and it also limits your losses because if you're up against AK and an A or K comes on the flop you can get away from this at some point without getting stacked.

On the flop it looks pretty standard to me. Shoving is the right move. It's very early in the hand so you really can't narrow down his range, it's still 99+, AQs+ for a TAG. Some of those hands that you're crushing will call, some won't, but you can't wait any longer. Flat calling will make hands like JJ, TT nervous anyway, you probably have a better chance of stacking them by shoving rather than just calling. Hands like AK, when they get called here, might just shut down when they don't improve on the next 2 streets because, again, the call is scarier than the shove. That's not to say AK will call this shove every time, but even a small % of times makes it more +EV than calling the $48.

Another thing is that calling the flop rather than shoving puts you 38 BB's deep with a starting stack of 115 BB's, making it really hard (although not yet impossible) to get away from this on the next street whatever card comes. Even if the turn brings a K, you don't have an easy fold because your hand has showdown value, so it's best to just stick it in here now. If he has AA or KK its just a cooler. Given that he's on the tighter side of TAG, you can't really put him on 87s type of hands even if his 3bet came from the button.

Amen, consensus seems to be c/r is the best, but what about betting this flop ? What is our line with JJ here ?
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
Joined
May 16, 2006
Total posts
6,129
What about repopping pre (i personally like flatting more) ? What is our line if he pushes ?

hypothetically, if i repopped here, even if i made it small and raised to $80, i pretty much have to call. i'd be getting 2:1 on a call. even if he only shoves this with AA, KK, and AK (a reasonable assumption), i have about 40% equity overall, and i only need ~33%. that being said, i don't like repopping here either because i let him fold everything he's supposed to fold and don't allow him to make a mistake or misconstrue my hand strength. no sense folding out everything i beat and getting action from a range i'm beaten by

Amen, consensus seems to be c/r is the best, but what about betting this flop ? What is our line with JJ here ?

good question. this whole situation would be really ugly with JJ. makes preflop pretty marginal as far as getting odds on set value/sometimes he'll check behind AK when he misses. assuming i called pre, i'd probably throw up everywhere and check/fold this flop against him. with QQ, JJ is a big part of his range. but if you change my hand to JJ, now QQ becomes a big part of his range. it changes my equity a whole lot. the only worse hand i can get in with would then be possibly TT (i don't think he 3bets me with 99).

if i bet the flop with JJ, it'd probably be to fold to a raise against this dude, which would suck cause i'd be getting decent pot odds at that point. i'd be scared that he'd take my bet for exactly what it was, basically fishing to see if he has a big pair, so he could then shove on me with AK and make my life hell. not incredibly likely, but possible. and then there's the chance that he decides his TT is the nuts and shoves on me which, with my plan to take it for a big pair and fold, would be a disaster. bet/calling and bet/folding both seemed really awkward so i just wouldn't want to put myself in that position

don't like betting the flop with QQ either. i think in the long run i get roughly the same out of TT-JJ, lose roughly the same from KK-AA whether i bet or check. and there's always the thing where betting lets JJ just call and then maybe a scare card comes and the action's screwed. this way gets more out of a c-betting AK (maybe AQs). of course it sucks if he checks behind with one of those hands and hits an A or K, i just didn't think he would. even when he does, only like 16% chance an over hits the turn
 
Last edited:
TheAssasin27

TheAssasin27

Enthusiast
Joined
Sep 16, 2007
Total posts
27
did he fold or call your all in bet????
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
Joined
May 16, 2006
Total posts
6,129
he cawled with the acez. board bricked out
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

plays poker on hard mode
Joined
May 16, 2006
Total posts
6,129
me too buddy, me too
 
J

joeeagles

Guest
Joined
Mar 24, 2007
Total posts
1,114
Amen, consensus seems to be c/r is the best, but what about betting this flop ? What is our line with JJ here ?

Jeff, I think with JJ, OOP and against a TAG, we're justified to fold PF. With Jacks you figure that an overcard will come on the flop over 50% of the time and when it comes we'll get a fit :) because it obviously makes the hand so much harder to play. Even when the overcard doesn't come we're really concerned that we might be WB. Sure we can call his PF 3bet for set value, but his raise to $28 is big enough to outprice us, even if it's close. We have to call $21 and have $202 left behind in effective stacks. Considering you don't get his stack everytime you flop a set, the call is definitely -EV even if not by much. With deeper stacks it's a no brainer but as it is a fold PF looks best. What makes matters worse is that you'll fold the best hand quite a few times in that spot (when you're up against TT, 99 or AQs+ that misses) regardless if the flop has overcards or not, although admittedly this is opponent dependant.

Having JJ rather than QQ widens his range just enough to make the call non profitable, but it's actually close enough, IMO, that you really can't say a call is terrible. The biggest problem with calling is that postflop, if you miss, your options are very limited. The CRAI that was done here with QQ becomes quite reckless with JJ if the flop is all undercards because you're up against a TAG, so you just can't plan it that way.

In the actual hand, betting the flop is a move I don't like because I think in the long run it makes you lose value against hands that are WB. If all of a sudden you lead out and take away from villain the control of the betting that he had established with his PF 3bet, you might allow hands like JJ,TT,99 to escape cheaper by folding the turn, and any AQs+ hand you'd rather get all their chips in the pot now that you're ahead rather than allowing it to see the turn by calling a "cheap" $40 bet. Consider also that any A or K that hits the turn puts us in an awkward spot. I don't see what possible advantage you can get by betting rather than checking. There is the danger that villain could check behind but it really isn't that big. After 3 betting PF I just can't imagine villain not c-bet on that board. It's a small risk that you have to take.
 
J

jeffred1111

Visionary
Joined
Apr 16, 2007
Total posts
792
Finally, discussion ! I agree that with JJ, we are priced out for set value and are actually behind or flipping a whole lot more than with QQ (since, as combu said, JJ is a big part of his range, as is AK or maybe AQ).

Too bad he had AA, but this is a sure +EV play even if he folds AK 99% of the time: look at all the dead money in there!
 
V

viking999

Visionary
Joined
Jul 4, 2005
Total posts
512
It kinda sucks that he took away the preflop re-re-raise play by making his re-raise so big. If he made a raise to $20, you could raise to $60 or even a little less and probably get away from the all-in.

A flop call could be in order if you had position, but otherwise you're just playing blind the rest of the hand. He could view a check-raise all-in here as being just about any pocket pair, unless he's been paying close attention to you, so it might be your best chance at extracting value from a weaker made hand.
 
Top