$2000 NLHE Full Ring: AA in $30k pot

TenJack

TenJack

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Villain is the same from the hand i posted yesterday with the boat over str8 hand. Very strong thinking player, tight from EP, very deep, 1500+BB He does get stubborn sometimes with big pairs.

Hero has been Tight, simply not picking up a lot of hands in the last hour. 1750 BB, super deep as well. I have been playing a long time, got involved in a few huge pots.

UTG folds
Villain raises to 80 from UTG+2
Folds to MP, 3-bets to 200
Folds to hero in CO with AsAc
Hero tanks a bit, 4-bets to 800
Villain calls 800
MP tanks, folds. (I guess our images are tight enough to scare him.)

Flop: Kh 7d 6s Pot: 1800

villain checks
Hero bets 1200
Villain goes into the tank, finally calls after around 2 minutes.

Turn: Kd Pot:4200

Villain checks.
Hero bets 2500.
Villain looks like he wants to fold, makes a weak looking call.

River: 9s Pot: 9200

Villain checks pretty quickly.
Hero decides to bet 3000
Villain goes pretty deep into the tank. Almost 3 minutes this time.
Villain raises to 10,000
Hero?


Yikes, I really feel stupid for firing a thin value bet on this blank river. What can villain have?

I had him read for queens or maybe Jacks on the flop. I guess if he called the flop with it he could justify the turn, if I had a king the turn really doesn’t change anything for him.

4 combos of AK to beat us, 1 combo of KK that seems fairly unlikely, although this deep I guess he could flat instead of raising my 4-bet.

1 combo of AA chops with us, but he 5-bets that I think.

99 beats us but A: he folds pre to my image and B: He folds the flop.

We only really beat a stubborn QQ, There really aren’t many other bluffs he can have, either. His range pre is mostly big pairs and AK, maybe AQ sometimes. I just felt like I had such a good read on him, and I don’t understand getting to this river how he did with AK. I really feel like also I only 4-bet here with AA, KK, maybe AK or QQ. He could dump AK on the flop if he reads me right, all of my combos have him beat or chopping other than QQ. He is probably better than me, he knows on this river his check-raise range is almost ALL value so it actually is a good bluff, in sort off an inverse-logic way.

I end up calling, only because only 5 combos have us beat and I am risking 7k to win 18k so I only have to be right approx. 1 in 2.5 times here. Do i ever win?
 
Hujiko

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Up till the river play seems normal to me. Now indeed what can he have and how does he read your weakish value-bet on the river.

From his point of view you can have AK or AA or KK or total air, but that is unlikely in a 4 bet pot on this board.
Villain 3 betted an UTG and called a 4 bet which looks like a strong hand. So yes agree AK AA or KK or a stubborn QQ but unlikely or perhaps a stubborn KQs? AA might 5 bet you but can also just call the 4 bet for deceptive reasons. 4 AK combos, one KK combo and two KQ combos that beat you and 6 QQ combos that might have fold on your line on the flop or turn.

You said he looked weak but in poker tells are difficult as a clear weak sign is most of the time strong and visa versa. But if your read is good a fair amount of the time I guess that I would have called the river given the pot odds.

Would not have bet the river as your likely beat on the river anyway and there aren't many hands that you beat that can call you. What percentage of hands can he have that would call and not contain a K ?
 
TenJack

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I agree with you, the river bet was pretty dumb, i guess i was trying to get QQ to maybe make a sigh-call. As for KQs, i dont think he ever has that, he folds pre to my 4-bet or on the flop when all of my range crushes him. But i could be wrong.

As for tells, the reason i say he called pretty weakly was because he used most of his small chips (stacks of 10s,25s,50s, instead of using 100s and 500s.) I see a lot of players doing that with sort of speculative hands that they think they are behind with just to tidy up their stack.

I usually don't put much in tells and stuff, i pay more attention to the hand and how they play. But the behavior just seemed odd. :confused:
 
Hujiko

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As for KQs, i dont think he ever has that, he folds pre to my 4-bet or on the flop when all of my range crushes him. But i could be wrong.

Nah I guess your right he was not closing the action and should not call the 4 bet with KQs even if you are very deep stacked.
 
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ibetmyho

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You should be checking the K turn, I really have no idea why you bet there. Pot control the turn and you can still bomb river to get value from under pairs.
 
Jblocher1

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You should be checking the K turn, I really have no idea why you bet there. Pot control the turn and you can still bomb river to get value from under pairs.



I agree turn check is better for these reasons, you don't have a three street value hand, you have a two street value hand and your check on turn might induce villain to bet out river with some bluffs making River an easy call
 
Hujiko

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I agree turn check is better for these reasons, you don't have a three street value hand, you have a two street value hand and your check on turn might induce villain to bet out river with some bluffs making River an easy call


I agree that in a c-bet pot on this board this is not a three street value hand maybe not even a two street value hand. On the turn your are already way behind or way ahead and also here you are probably only targeting a stubborn QQ.
 
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braveslice

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With top down approach, we are playing for stacks 1500bb deep with over pair. Can this be right? On the flop pot is 90bb, stack to pot ratio is 16. This number is so high that some would pot control with baby full house.
 
TenJack

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With top down approach, we are playing for stacks 1500bb deep with over pair. Can this be right? On the flop pot is 90bb, stack to pot ratio is 16. This number is so high that some would pot control with baby full house.


If he has a boat here my name is bob the builder lol.

He either has a king or i win.
 
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braveslice

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If he has a boat here my name is bob the builder lol.
I wasn't referring to the action in this hand, rather the SPR in this hand, and because SPR is so high, questioning the game plan with over pair.
 
TenJack

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Its a valid point. We are both so deep that i guess pot control would have been smart.

Checking the turn seems better than betting, its really hard for worse to call and i lose less if he has a K. Thank you all for pointing that out!:)
 
TenJack

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He chopped it up with AA, idk what he was doing on the flop checking. I didn't really expect this at all!
 
Bozovicdj

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Villain is the same from the hand i posted yesterday with the boat over str8 hand. Very strong thinking player, tight from EP, very deep, 1500+BB He does get stubborn sometimes with big pairs.

Hero has been Tight, simply not picking up a lot of hands in the last hour. 1750 BB, super deep as well. I have been playing a long time, got involved in a few huge pots.

UTG folds
Villain raises to 80 from UTG+2
Folds to MP, 3-bets to 200
Folds to hero in CO with AsAc
Hero tanks a bit, 4-bets to 800
Villain calls 800
MP tanks, folds. (I guess our images are tight enough to scare him.)

Flop: Kh 7d 6s Pot: 1800

villain checks
Hero bets 1200
Villain goes into the tank, finally calls after around 2 minutes.

Turn: Kd Pot:4200

Villain checks.
Hero bets 2500.
Villain looks like he wants to fold, makes a weak looking call.

River: 9s Pot: 9200

Villain checks pretty quickly.
Hero decides to bet 3000
Villain goes pretty deep into the tank. Almost 3 minutes this time.
Villain raises to 10,000
Hero?


Yikes, I really feel stupid for firing a thin value bet on this blank river. What can villain have?

I had him read for queens or maybe Jacks on the flop. I guess if he called the flop with it he could justify the turn, if I had a king the turn really doesn’t change anything for him.

4 combos of AK to beat us, 1 combo of KK that seems fairly unlikely, although this deep I guess he could flat instead of raising my 4-bet.

1 combo of AA chops with us, but he 5-bets that I think.

99 beats us but A: he folds pre to my image and B: He folds the flop.

We only really beat a stubborn QQ, There really aren’t many other bluffs he can have, either. His range pre is mostly big pairs and AK, maybe AQ sometimes. I just felt like I had such a good read on him, and I don’t understand getting to this river how he did with AK. I really feel like also I only 4-bet here with AA, KK, maybe AK or QQ. He could dump AK on the flop if he reads me right, all of my combos have him beat or chopping other than QQ. He is probably better than me, he knows on this river his check-raise range is almost ALL value so it actually is a good bluff, in sort off an inverse-logic way.

I end up calling, only because only 5 combos have us beat and I am risking 7k to win 18k so I only have to be right approx. 1 in 2.5 times here. Do i ever win?



As far as the action go, once you get called on the turn, some alarm bells must turn on, just enough for you to go for a check-check on the river. As played, I would have called as well and prepare to hit or break something cause that K came on the turn.

I do want to ask you about your image that you established at the table. I went over your last thread (str8 vs boat) and you clashed with 63s vs 45s against the same villain. That and the fact that you have such a huge deep stacks, makes me question both of your ranges, meaning that some KQ is definitely in his range.
 
TenJack

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I vary my image a lot, especially against the same people. At a tight table i play a lot more splashy and loose, at a fairly loosey-goosey tables i tighten up and play more Abc. I think i described his range as very tight from ep, he likes to steal a bunch from lp. From mid-late pos, he can maybe have KQs, but not from Utg2.

As we are so deep it would actually be easier to fold KQ imo. You would have such a shitty SPR if you paired up, and you don't even have top kicker. It could turn into a huge pot so quickly, does he really want to do that with something so marginal? You would end up loosing boatloads in the long run.
 
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