$200 NLHE Full Ring: LIVE - flopped boat versus LAG, terrible turn card

3betfish

3betfish

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LIVE $1/$3 GAME - 9 handed

Hero stack is $600
Villain stack is $800+
Villain is LAG Asian man who normally plays $3/$6 limit hold’em . He loves to play slots. He’s drunk because he won a slot jackpot and is making big moves on the $1/$3 . I have no history with the guy, but I know he’s a regular at the cardroom.


Hero is on the button with 4h4d.
Villain is super loose and aggro, he opens from UTG+1 to ~$23. Hero decides to hang around the call in hopes to set mine and keep playing with action heavy junkie. Small blind folds. Big blind, who is a thinking player, calls.


Three ways to the flop
Pot: $70
Board: TsTc4s


We make a boat.
Villain continues for $50.
Hero calls to induce a call from B.B.
But B.B. decides to fold.


Two ways to the turn
Pot: $170
board: TsTc4s + Td


Villain checks.
Hero???????????????????
 
8bod8

8bod8

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Very interesting, I'll follow. (sorry, no quality advise from me; I have no idea)
 
J

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Tough decision, I'd honestly raise in that spot due to the chance of him having a T or pocket pair is still somewhat low then call/check the river.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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i think id check the turn back, it leaves more bluffs in his range that he might bet the river with, essentially giving us more equity on the river vs his range. i think betting the turn folds out a lot of the worse hands that we want to keep in his range. this concept is called "range manipulation" not sure if theres much content out there on this concept though, but its basically the idea that there are some cases where we want to keep the opponents range as wide as possible.
 
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JustSoPro

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i think id check the turn back, it leaves more bluffs in his range that he might bet the river with, essentially giving us more equity on the river vs his range. i think betting the turn folds out a lot of the worse hands that we want to keep in his range. this concept is called "range manipulation" not sure if theres much content out there on this concept though, but its basically the idea that there are some cases where we want to keep the opponents range as wide as possible.
Yeah, but it increases the villains chance of winning by about 13% as he can hit either of the cards in his hand to have a higher boat, plus if you check here the villain is almost guaranteed to bet on the river whether or not he has anything making it an even tougher spot to be in(Unless you hit your one out...)
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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Yeah, but it increases the villains chance of winning by about 13% as he can hit either of the cards in his hand to have a higher boat, plus if you check here the villain is almost guaranteed to bet on the river whether or not he has anything making it an even tougher spot to be in(Unless you hit your one out...)
easiest spot in the world. if villain bets his entire range on the river, we're printing money!!!

think of it this way. we bet the turn and villain folds 50% of his range to our turn bet. meaning he continues with pocket pairs making up a much higher percentage of his range. with the exception of pocket twos and threes, we lose to the rest of his pocket pairs and because he folded half of his rang, he now wins twice as often (plus the 13% that he floats with A high and spikes the river)


but if he's betting 100% of his range, then when we check, he has twice (not exactly but...) as many bluffs on the river and his bluff to value ratio is going to be incredibly out of line.

by betting the turn, we accidentally give him a closer to reasonable bluff to value ratio. so when he calls the turn, deciding whether or not to double barrel on the river or if we barrel the river and get raised or to call if he leads the river all become much tougher spots than if we just check and let him bluff away at any river.

not sure if this explanation does it justice, im sure it would be easier to explain if I broke out equilab, but im about two hours behind schedule haha woops, i should have been at the casino an hour ago lol so i dont quite have time for all that right now.

i guess in my mind, the concept of range manipulation is especially valuable when facing an opponent who bluffs too much and we want to keep as many bluffs in his range as possible.
 
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JustSoPro

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easiest spot in the world. if villain bets his entire range on the river, we're printing money!!!

think of it this way. we bet the turn and villain folds 50% of his range to our turn bet. meaning he continues with pocket pairs making up a much higher percentage of his range. with the exception of pocket twos and threes, we lose to the rest of his pocket pairs and because he folded half of his rang, he now wins twice as often (plus the 13% that he floats with A high and spikes the river)


but if he's betting 100% of his range, then when we check, he has twice (not exactly but...) as many bluffs on the river and his bluff to value ratio is going to be incredibly out of line.

by betting the turn, we accidentally give him a closer to reasonable bluff to value ratio. so when he calls the turn, deciding whether or not to double barrel on the river or if we barrel the river and get raised or to call if he leads the river all become much tougher spots than if we just check and let him bluff away at any river.

not sure if this explanation does it justice, im sure it would be easier to explain if I broke out equilab, but im about two hours behind schedule haha woops, i should have been at the casino an hour ago lol so i dont quite have time for all that right now.

i guess in my mind, the concept of range manipulation is especially valuable when facing an opponent who bluffs too much and we want to keep as many bluffs in his range as possible.


You are actually right, if their was more people in the pot(4-5+ players) then it would be plus EV to try to get some of them out of the pot. I've been practicing a lot of tournament play the past couple of weeks(Always been a lot better at cash than tournaments) and have been getting somewhat annoyed with all of the all-in bluffs every other hand at the end of tournaments.
 
mbrenneman0

mbrenneman0

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You are actually right, if their was more people in the pot(4-5+ players) then it would be plus EV to try to get some of them out of the pot. I've been practicing a lot of tournament play the past couple of weeks(Always been a lot better at cash than tournaments) and have been getting somewhat annoyed with all of the all-in bluffs every other hand at the end of tournaments.
sounds like you need to study push fold strategy a little bit. and also betting for protection has much more merit in a tournament where your chip stack is limited than in a cash game. although i think youre right, i think if there were 4-5 players in the pot, then it would be right to bet... although to be honest, it would interesting to analyze a situation like this with 4 to 5 players mathematically. i do need to work on my multiway strategy.
 
3betfish

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sounds like you need to study push fold strategy a little bit. and also betting for protection has much more merit in a tournament where your chip stack is limited than in a cash game. although i think youre right, i think if there were 4-5 players in the pot, then it would be right to bet... although to be honest, it would interesting to analyze a situation like this with 4 to 5 players mathematically. i do need to work on my multiway strategy.

You are actually right, if their was more people in the pot(4-5+ players) then it would be plus EV to try to get some of them out of the pot. I've been practicing a lot of tournament play the past couple of weeks(Always been a lot better at cash than tournaments) and have been getting somewhat annoyed with all of the all-in bluffs every other hand at the end of tournaments.

Very interesting, I'll follow. (sorry, no quality advise from me; I have no idea)

Check - check on the turn and river. Villain was last aggressor so he had to show. Board was T-T-4-T-9. Villain shows KdJd. Hero takes it down. Table mumbles about how great of a flop it was for me, but the actual thinking players at the table were also wondering how to play the turn in that spot lol.
 
8bod8

8bod8

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thanks guy, very interesting and useful (at least for me) discussion.
 
liuouhgkres

liuouhgkres

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Op, I had a similar spot recently and I discussed it in depth with my good friend who is a good midstakes cash reg... Anyway, our conclusion, both betting one third and checking back are close decisions, and you are not doing mistake either way. If you bet though, you should fold to raise, call with higher pairs, maybe like 88+. If you check back you call reasonable bet on any river except A.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

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Agree very strongly with mbrenneman. Particularly against some drunk slot playing regular we want to check back turn and just try to induce if possible. We can't really get value by betting, and even though we deny equity, I think we make more by occasionally picking off bluffs on the river.
 
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