$200 NLHE Full Ring: Live 1/3 - How light is too light to call down this LAG?

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c0rnBr34d

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Epic 1/3 table where several players are quite deep (1.5k, 2k, etc). 3 or 4 whales have already busted and we get a new fun player two seats to my left. He's trying to see almost every flop and playing something like 85/12 with no real 3B range yet. Villain isn't raising much but he's calling A LOT and as soon as the PFR stops betting he takes over and buys it, or if it checks to him he will often take the lead or donk lead and triple barrel. He sit's down and wrecks the table for several orbits until players start to call him down and he has the "any two cards" his VPIP suggests. He's running good though cracking QQ twice and KK with hands like A6o in 3 bet pots. And now since no one believes him he's getting FAT river value when he has a hand. He's also getting caught with Q high or worse from time to time, and not "missed a flush draw Q high or worse", just barreling off air Q high or worse.

OTTH:

Hero is $900 effective and opens UTG with AsQs to $12 with tight image, V calls, 3 others call behind.

Flop (~$55 after rake): Td 4d 2d
Hero checks, V bets $20, everyone folds to Hero. It's heads up and we are OOP against any two cards. I don't think we can fold Ace high here but recognize that 90% of the time V is going to triple barrel. Seems like a no win but V is borderline unbluffable and will call down VERY light with any pair or any draw or hands like two overs and has us covered. Hero calls. Plan is to fold on a 4th diamond and otherwise evaluate.

Turn ($95): Td 4d 2d Jc
Fairly blank, Hero checks. V bets $25. Standard. His pattern has been smallish bets flop and turn, larger river bets. Hero calls since we still have fairly good show down value against ATC and the price is good.

River ($145): Td 4d 2d Jc 2h
Hero checks. V bets $75. Standard. We missed our slim pair draw but faded diamonds. Are we calling down here with Ace high to beat his air hands or folding since he can have 33 or any pocket pair or any piece of the board along with flushes?

Thoughts on all streets welcome.
 
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Casey55

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call down, if he's playing any two and barreling frequently AQ is a marginal made hand that can win showdowns. I would classify the guy as a maniac and against maniacs you have to adjust by calling down more often. A ton of people do this type of situation over and over where they call flop and turn but fold river frequently, which I think is a big mistake. I would call and if he has the winning hand I would think of it as variance because there will a lot of that facing a maniac.
 
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eetenor

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Epic 1/3 table where several players are quite deep (1.5k, 2k, etc). 3 or 4 whales have already busted and we get a new fun player two seats to my left. He's trying to see almost every flop and playing something like 85/12 with no real 3B range yet. Villain isn't raising much but he's calling A LOT and as soon as the PFR stops betting he takes over and buys it, or if it checks to him he will often take the lead or donk lead and triple barrel. He sit's down and wrecks the table for several orbits until players start to call him down and he has the "any two cards" his VPIP suggests. He's running good though cracking QQ twice and KK with hands like A6o in 3 bet pots. And now since no one believes him he's getting FAT river value when he has a hand. He's also getting caught with Q high or worse from time to time, and not "missed a flush draw Q high or worse", just barreling off air Q high or worse.

OTTH:

Hero is $900 effective and opens UTG with AsQs to $12 with tight image, V calls, 3 others call behind.

Flop (~$55 after rake): Td 4d 2d
Hero checks, V bets $20, everyone folds to Hero. It's heads up and we are OOP against any two cards. I don't think we can fold Ace high here but recognize that 90% of the time V is going to triple barrel. Seems like a no win but V is borderline unbluffable and will call down VERY light with any pair or any draw or hands like two overs and has us covered. Hero calls. Plan is to fold on a 4th diamond and otherwise evaluate.

Turn ($95): Td 4d 2d Jc
Fairly blank, Hero checks. V bets $25. Standard. His pattern has been smallish bets flop and turn, larger river bets. Hero calls since we still have fairly good show down value against ATC and the price is good.

River ($145): Td 4d 2d Jc 2h
Hero checks. V bets $75. Standard. We missed our slim pair draw but faded diamonds. Are we calling down here with Ace high to beat his air hands or folding since he can have 33 or any pocket pair or any piece of the board along with flushes?

Thoughts on all streets welcome.

Thank you for posting.

The villain seems to be giving multiple opportunities to take their stack so there is no need to out play them in this spot. It is great that you are thinking through the V's range and all possible hand combos but why do that vs this unskilled V?

We sometimes get emotional regarding weaker players and this is a spot were emotion caused us to think "I am winning this hand" when the more rational thought is "They get this small pot I will get the next big pot" 2 hands from now we may get stacks while holding the nuts vs this V. If we lose here and do win in 2 hands that is $75 less we win.

Vs this V on that board check fold flop. Move on to the next hand where we have enough equity vs their full range to warrant continuing. The V might have pair plus A or Q or just pair plus D

Why fold flop? Because the turn tricked you. You thought the J was good for you but it only gives you minimal amounts more equity versus their full range. So you called and because you did you are going to hero call this V on the river out of a sense of obligation to call "I came this far this guy bluffs"

We need to ask ourselves this -what are 2 of the most common cards that all V call raises with? Jx - Tx both are on this board. VS a standard V how often are we bluff catching on that board?

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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John A

John A

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Just fold the flop. If villain is bluffing FOUR people on the flop including the PFR, good for him. Tip your cap and move on. You didn't adjust your calling range properly on the flop because of that. It should tighten way the hell up, especially if the guy is "unbluffable" as you say. You're forced into having to make a hand if that's the case.

You're way over thinking this spot w/o considering the very first fundamentals of poker. People rarely try and bluff that many people off their hands. And if they are mindlessly doing that, you'll have his stack soon enough. If this hand was HU's, then your reasoning applies better, but it wasn't. There was SIX people on a dry flop. You gotta love live poker.
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

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Listen to John A....in my experience, he is always right.
 
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QA77

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If there’s a spade on the flop, I guess I would try and see the turn. But you really don’t have much. Villain might have air or is just betting a 4 or weak T like this. Save the money and wait for another hand.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Just fold the flop. If villain is bluffing FOUR people on the flop including the PFR, good for him. Tip your cap and move on. You didn't adjust your calling range properly on the flop because of that. It should tighten way the hell up, especially if the guy is "unbluffable" as you say. You're forced into having to make a hand if that's the case.

You're way over thinking this spot w/o considering the very first fundamentals of poker. People rarely try and bluff that many people off their hands. And if they are mindlessly doing that, you'll have his stack soon enough. If this hand was HU's, then your reasoning applies better, but it wasn't. There was SIX people on a dry flop. You gotta love live poker.
This has not been a factor thus far in Villian's bluff frequency. I didn't put this level of detail in but V has seemed indifferent to number of players in the hand when tripling off. I would love to have a stronger hand obviously but closing the action I really did consider this to be heads up given history. Not saying that's not a mistake, but that was my read based on previous hands where V bluffed into 4 or 5 players.
 
TheBigFinn

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I am on "Team Fold the Flop." There is nothing in Villain's reported play that precludes him from having a T or J or even a 4. Hero wants to save his chips for when the maniac has a similar range and Hero has top pair at least.
 
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