$200 NLHE Full Ring: Call with Cowboys Here?

[DenverChicken]

This is driving me crazy. $1/$2 full circle ring game. Hero has KK in BB. UTG1 3bets and UTG2 5bets. Folds to hero who calls and UTG1 calls. Flop is 8s6s8d. Hero bets pot ($30). UTG pushes all in $150. UTG2 pushes $350. What does hero do?

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Presumably you mean, that UTG+1 raised to 3 big blinds, and UTG+2 made an undersized 3-bet to 5 big blinds. Now you have a mandatory 4-bet for value. You should make it around 20 big blinds or 40$ and charge them to stick around and try to draw out on you or put you in tough spots after the flop.

Flop
Since you just called preflop, you should check to the preflop aggressor, which is UTG+2 and allow him to bluff or bet worse hands for value. If you are going to make a donk bet, you should use a smaller size. Its a way ahead way behind spot, so there is no point in betting the size of the pot.

As played you should fold, when both opponents go all in. This is where, it comes back to haunt you, that you just called preflop. Because of this either player could easily have 88, 66, A8s, 98s, 87s, 86s etc. So a lot of hands beat you now, and stacks are to deep to blindly stack off with an overpair.

 

[zhilipp]

Preflop
Presumably you mean, that UTG+1 raised to 3 big blinds, and UTG+2 made an undersized 3-bet to 5 big blinds. Now you have a mandatory 4-bet for value. You should make it around 20 big blinds or 40$ and charge them to stick around and try to draw out on you or put you in tough spots after the flop.

Flop
Since you just called preflop, you should check to the preflop aggressor, which is UTG+2 and allow him to bluff or bet worse hands for value. If you are going to make a donk bet, you should use a smaller size. Its a way ahead way behind spot, so there is no point in betting the size of the pot.

As played you should fold, when both opponents go all in. This is where, it comes back to haunt you, that you just called preflop. Because of this either player could easily have 88, 66, A8s, 98s, 87s, 86s etc. So a lot of hands beat you now, and stacks are to deep to blindly stack off with an overpair.

Exactly what fundiver said.

But how did it turn out? How did you play it? Just curious.

 

[Sidetracked]

I know full ring ranges and dynamics are different from 6 max, but I do think that a good sized 4 bet preflop would have thinned the field to probably heads up, and thus simplified the hand for you.

 

[hackmeplz]

Preflop
Presumably you mean, that UTG+1 raised to 3 big blinds, and UTG+2 made an undersized 3-bet to 5 big blinds. Now you have a mandatory 4-bet for value. You should make it around 20 big blinds or 40$ and charge them to stick around and try to draw out on you or put you in tough spots after the flop.

Flop
Since you just called preflop, you should check to the preflop aggressor, which is UTG+2 and allow him to bluff or bet worse hands for value. If you are going to make a donk bet, you should use a smaller size. Its a way ahead way behind spot, so there is no point in betting the size of the pot.

As played you should fold, when both opponents go all in. This is where, it comes back to haunt you, that you just called preflop. Because of this either player could easily have 88, 66, A8s, 98s, 87s, 86s etc. So a lot of hands beat you now, and stacks are to deep to blindly stack off with an overpair.

Agree with most of this other than the flop donk size. I agree you shouldn't donk, but if you do it should be large as I think both players have a lot of pairs in their range that you beat and those hands are calling but not raising, so you want to get as much money in as possible. But once one shoves over and another re-shoves it's a pretty easy fold. Sorry one of them had QQ and the other JJ (assuming you wouldn't have posted it otherwise).

 

[DenverChicken]

Result

Thanks guys. I feel ALOT better. I folded. UTG1 flips As10s. UTG2 flips QQ. Turn is Jh and River is 8c. Ladies take a big one.

 

[fundiver199]

So you fell victim to an accidental value bluff by the guy with QQ. If you 4-bet pre, then AT of spades likely goes away, and you have a much easier and more profitable situation postflop. The stack to pot ration is much lower, you are only against one opponent, and since he called a 4-bet, he most definitely does not have an 8 in his hand. So easy stack off and you dubble up against QQ. You digged your own grave by not 4-betting.

 

[moulan7]

Maaaayyybe you should call the flop xD.
The texture of the board is good for KK. If someone has AA you can't do anything.
Why no 4bet? What were you expecting to see on the flop since you just called?
This is a great flop. The action is crazy ok but will an 8 go allin? I don't think that the player who pushes first has an 8. And is it possible for the other one to hold one? It's possible like 0.0001% xD.
The utg+1 raises and the utg+2 3bets (5bb lol). utg+2 doesn't 3bet with an 8.
And given the action on flop I insist that utg+1 doesn't hold an 8 or 66 (why to shove?).
I believe you folded because you were afraid of AA? You can't do anything if that's the case.

Call xD

 

[DenverChicken]

So you fell victim to an accidental value bluff by the guy with QQ. If you 4-bet pre, then AT of spades likely goes away, and you have a much easier and more profitable situation postflop. The stack to pot ration is much lower, you are only against one opponent, and since he called a 4-bet, he most definitely does not have an 8 in his hand. So easy stack off and you dubble up against QQ. You digged your own grave by not 4-betting.

For sure. Lesson is 4-bet and big. No guarantee the result changes, but my odds are better.

 

[DenverChicken]

Maaaayyybe you should call the flop xD.
The texture of the board is good for KK. If someone has AA you can't do anything.
Why no 4bet? What were you expecting to see on the flop since you just called?
This is a great flop. The action is crazy ok but will an 8 go allin? I don't think that the player who pushes first has an 8. And is it possible for the other one to hold one? It's possible like 0.0001% xD.
The utg+1 raises and the utg+2 3bets (5bb lol). utg+2 doesn't 3bet with an 8.
And given the action on flop I insist that utg+1 doesn't hold an 8 or 66 (why to shove?).
I believe you folded because you were afraid of AA? You can't do anything if that's the case.

Call xD

Mkay

 

[moulan7]

Mkay

If this is sarcastic I can't get it. If I'm taking it wrong I apologize.
Just tried to put in some thoughts about your villain's holdings.
Their actions must have some reasoning behind.
Most times your holding is better than theirs on such spots.

 

[DenverChicken]

If this is sarcastic I can't get it. If I'm taking it wrong I apologize.
Just tried to put in some thoughts about your villain's holdings.
Their actions must have some reasoning behind.
Most times your holding is better than theirs on such spots.

Maaaayybbeeee. I picked up sarcasm in your reply that was posted after I finished the hand.

 

[moulan7]

Maaaayybbeeee. I picked up sarcasm in your reply that was posted after I finished the hand.

Nope, was not my intention at all, so sorry if I didn't put it well.
I really believe you should call here. For me that situation is exactly like two people go allin preflop and I hold Kings.
I explained why I believe that. If the utg has a nut type hand like 66 or an 8 he never shoves here. I have never seen that happen before. Never. And the utg+2 it's very difficult to hold a nut type hand like an 8 or 66 because he 3bet the utg preflop and this is a full ring. The most times a 3bet to the utg from an utg is a good solid hand. No 6s or 8s.
So your only concern is most likely Aces.
I'm not saying that they can never hold a hand that includes an 8 or 66 but it's very unlikely that they do here.

edit: I'm not saying that is an easy call. very tough decision. the maayyybeee was going exactly to print the fact that I'm not sure at all if the call is good. yeah I saw the results before my comment. Just tried to put some thoughts about the hand that's all, if it makes any sense.

 

[DenverChicken]

Nope, was not my intention at all, so sorry if I didn't put it well.
I really believe you should call here. For me that situation is exactly like two people go allin preflop and I hold Kings.
I explained why I believe that. If the utg has a nut type hand like 66 or an 8 he never shoves here. I have never seen that happen before. Never. And the utg+2 it's very difficult to hold a nut type hand like an 8 or 66 because he 3bet the utg preflop and this is a full ring. The most times a 3bet to the utg from an utg is a good solid hand. No 6s or 8s.
So your only concern is most likely Aces.
I'm not saying that they can never hold a hand that includes an 8 or 66 but it's very unlikely that they do here.

Word. We’re all good. My post was pretty specific and I waited 2 days before finishing the hand. Wish you would’ve replied sooner. AA was my last concern. I didn’t fold to AA. Only time that came up was in your post after I finished the hand. And you are the only one who would’ve called....hum

 

[moulan7]

Word. We’re all good. My post was pretty specific and I waited 2 days before finishing the hand. Wish you would’ve replied sooner. AA was my last concern. I didn’t fold to AA. Only time that came up was in your post after I finished the hand. And you are the only one who would’ve called....hum

I'm not saying that I'm an expert. Far from that. Maybe a bad decision to call. I'll pay that I guess. Also I don't have experience on 200nl either, just looking at it as a game.
Again, I didn't want to imply anything. Just some thoughts (if they make any sense) after I already knew the outcome.
(I just read the thread)

 

[fundiver199]

I actually think, someone could very well have an 8 here. Sure UTG+1 should not open many 8X hands if any at all. Maybe A8s, 98s, 87s, and then he is already opening wide. But as I understand it, people are typically playing to many hands in low stakes live games, so I certainly think, this is possible.

And when he only had to call a click-it-back 3-bet, nothing was removed from his range. I also think, it makes sense for him to just get it in, when Hero makes a pot sized donk bet. It is a draw heavy board, and if Hero is donking a hand like JJ, many cards could scare Hero later. Even so if UTG+2 had folded, I would still snap call the jam from UTG+1.

However when UTG+2 then also jam, and possible for a much larger stack (depending on Heros stack), this is where, I dont like the spot any more. UTG+2 is obviously a wildcard using an incorrect 3-bet sizing, and when someone does that, I will typically assume, they are not very good, and that they are messing around with a wide range of hands. So in my opinion UTG+2 can have 8X quite a lot, and this is why, I am folding as played.

This is also why, I am never just flat calling preflop. We are way ahead of both players range, and we are out of position, so flatting just make postflop a hell, which this outcome is a good example off. Low stakes poker really is stupidly simple. When you are likely to have the best hand, then bet or raise. That is pretty much all, there is to it.

 

[moulan7]

@fundiver

Yes, very good points.
utg+1's stack size can justify his shove even with nut hand, I was thinking about that too.
although my little experience says that this is more likely a draw type hand or a pocket pair like 1010-QQ which prefers to end the hand right there.
And utg+2's 3bet size (if it is as presumed - 5bb-) shows an inexperience player that might go crazy occasionally with weak holdings. So it's fair to think that from time to time he might get that dream flop. I see that happening a lot.

Really I would have been much more scared if they would have just called here though.
Really strong hands tend to call on flops.

 

[DenverChicken]

I actually think, someone could very well have an 8 here. Sure UTG+1 should not open many 8X hands if any at all. Maybe A8s, 98s, 87s, and then he is already opening wide. But as I understand it, people are typically playing to many hands in low stakes live games, so I certainly think, this is possible.

And when he only had to call a click-it-back 3-bet, nothing was removed from his range. I also think, it makes sense for him to just get it in, when Hero makes a pot sized donk bet. It is a draw heavy board, and if Hero is donking a hand like JJ, many cards could scare Hero later. Even so if UTG+2 had folded, I would still snap call the jam from UTG+1.

However when UTG+2 then also jam, and possible for a much larger stack (depending on Heros stack), this is where, I dont like the spot any more. UTG+2 is obviously a wildcard using an incorrect 3-bet sizing, and when someone does that, I will typically assume, they are not very good, and that they are messing around with a wide range of hands. So in my opinion UTG+2 can have 8X quite a lot, and this is why, I am folding as played.

This is also why, I am never just flat calling preflop. We are way ahead of both players range, and we are out of position, so flatting just make postflop a hell, which this outcome is a good example off. Low stakes poker really is stupidly simple. When you are likely to have the best hand, then bet or raise. That is pretty much all, there is to it.

Absolutely agree. I folded to the 8 with a slight fear of 66. My experience is players at the $1/$2 level will open up more than you’d think to A8o, K8s, Q8s and even J8s. This is why I played so slowly pre-flop and hence where I made my mistake. I wanted them in. I had big stack. I think I expected one chaser OR one lower PP. I would’ve likely called one push but not both.

If I had made the big 4-bet pre-flop, I would’ve dropped UTG1 and been heads up like sidetracked said and easy stack off double up like fundiver said.

I don’t think even a big donk bet would’ve eliminated either one. My memory fades, but I’m pretty sure they were both quick to push after my check.

 

[JJP]

I agree with all the analysis pre flop, but I am not folding this flop ...

OP do we have a spade ? If i have a spade blocker then I am definately not folding

 

[fundiver199]

This is why I played so slowly pre-flop and hence where I made my mistake. I wanted them in.

This mindset is something, you need to work on, if you goal is to win money in poker. I can certainly see, where it comes from, especially for a live player, who only see 25-30 hands per hour. You play for 4 hours, finally you look down at KK or AA, and you think "Yes!!! This is my moment!" But that is not really, how poker work. Just because you have KK or AA does not mean, someone is going to donate their entire stack to you, so this instinctive expectation is completely out of proportion.

As an online player I can check in my database, how much money a hand actually makes me, and on pokerstars my average with KK is 6,4BB. For other people or in other games it might be a slightly different number, but its something in that ballpark. Its not 100BB or 50BB. So if you 4-bet here, and everyone folds, its not a failure. Its a success, because you won the pot, and you actually won more than your average expectation, given that there was already 9,5BB in the pot.

The other part of the "keeping them in" argument is, that you assume, they are going to make a lot of mistakes later in the hand, when you slowplay. And that might be true, if they are really bad. But if they are really bad, then they are also going to make a lot of mistakes, when you raise. Nobody play perfect, when they face aggression but really bad, when they dont. And as this hand illustrate, by playing passive you make your own decisions more complicated, which increase the risk, that you end up making mistakes yourself.

Even more importantly you simply miss out on value. Even if a 4-bet somewhat turns your hand face up, what exactly are they going to do about it? They can either call and pay you off, or they can fold and give up their equity. So as long as you actually have the best hand, you leave them with two bad choises.

 

[Plaza]

This.

For sure. Lesson is 4-bet and big. No guarantee the result changes, but my odds are better.

So you fell victim to an accidental value bluff by the guy with QQ. If you 4-bet pre, then AT of spades likely goes away, and you have a much easier and more profitable situation postflop. The stack to pot ration is much lower, you are only against one opponent, and since he called a 4-bet, he most definitely does not have an 8 in his hand. So easy stack off and you dubble up against QQ. You digged your own grave by not 4-betting.

100% spot on.

Plaza

 

[GWU73]

Tight spot s played. Why not raise to 75 pre flop. With the intention of making any non A flop?