$200 NLHE Full Ring: $200 NLHE Full Ring: Should KK Shove preflop?

[Cesum Pec]

I have discussed this hand with several people, and I believe their recommended action is wrong. I'm trying to decide whether it is me or them that is not understanding the full picture.

UTG, Hero = $475, image is fairly tight, aggressive, has been caught in a couple of bluffs with AK, usually C-bets, hasn't won any large pots but has picked off more than his share of $50 - $100 pots.

UTG+2, Villain = $700, a solid player who has called downed some big bluffs with good reads. Two hands ago he double up thru the Wildman. When Hero got caught with the AK bluffs, both times Villain announced to the table Hero's hand prior to showdown.

Hijack, Wildman = $275, has been all-in dozens of times in the last 3 hours, stack has been up and down, has been caught repeatedly shoving all in on draws, has bought in probably 5 times. He is wild and not in a smart way. His stack has been as high as $700, but a couple of hands ago he lost about $300+ to Villain.


UTG, Hero wakes up with KK, bets $5. I bet small because the table is playing fairly wild and I think I have trained the table that I will fold $5 opening bets to re-raises. I'm trying to make it easy on someone to re-raise. Pot = $8

Action folds to Villain who insta-raises to $35. Pot = $43

Action folds to Wildman who goes all in for $275. Pot = $318

Action folds to Hero who goes into the tank, in part to disguise my premium hand. Hero's thought process:

---Villain surely does not have AA or KK. He has previously raised 2.5X when he was looking for a caller. He would not have raised so much when the pot has only $7 in it, expected range of hands, 99 to JJ, AK, AQ.

---Wildman's range of hands could be just about anything because he is riding the tilt-a-whirl, but this action junkie does not have AA or KK because he would not want to kill the hand.

Hero is having trouble deciding whether to call in the hopes that Villain stays in the hand, or going all in in order to isolate Wildman. What should Hero do, fold, call the $275, or all in for $475?

 

[fundiver199]

Ship it all in. Calling 275$ with 200$ left behind commit you to the pot anyway, and it makes no difference to the decision of UTG+2. Its not like, he is going to call 240$ and then fold for another 200$ after the flop either. So he know, he is risking the full 440$, weather it goes in before the flop or not.

 

[Cesum Pec]

dupe post deleted

 

[Cesum Pec]

Its not like, he is going to call 240$ and then fold for another 200$ after the flop either.

Probably true, but do I want to lure Villain into the pot or hopefully intimidate him into folding?

There is more legal communication that can be done than just the words, call or raise.

 

[fundiver199]

He is obviously never folding AA, and you are ahead of everything else, so you want him to come along. Its not a huge mistake to just call, but if you do, then what is your plan, if he just call as well? Are you going to check-fold or check-call, if an ace come of the flop, there is 825 in the pot, and he put you all in for the last 200? You are getting 5:1, but if he have an ace, that is still not good enough, and is he ever bluffing? Its just really awkward, and I dont want to be in that spot, so for me its just all in preflop, and then come what may.

 

[57noona]

I have discussed this hand with several people, and I believe their recommended action is wrong. I'm trying to decide whether it is me or them that is not understanding the full picture.

UTG, Hero = $475, image is fairly tight, aggressive, has been caught in a couple of bluffs with AK, usually C-bets, hasn't won any large pots but has picked off more than his share of $50 - $100 pots.

UTG+2, Villain = $700, a solid player who has called downed some big bluffs with good reads. Two hands ago he double up thru the Wildman. When Hero got caught with the AK bluffs, both times Villain announced to the table Hero's hand prior to showdown.

Hijack, Wildman = $275, has been all-in dozens of times in the last 3 hours, stack has been up and down, has been caught repeatedly shoving all in on draws, has bought in probably 5 times. He is wild and not in a smart way. His stack has been as high as $700, but a couple of hands ago he lost about $300+ to Villain.


UTG, Hero wakes up with KK, bets $5. I bet small because the table is playing fairly wild and I think I have trained the table that I will fold $5 opening bets to re-raises. I'm trying to make it easy on someone to re-raise. Pot = $8

Action folds to Villain who insta-raises to $35. Pot = $43

Action folds to Wildman who goes all in for $275. Pot = $318

Action folds to Hero who goes into the tank, in part to disguise my premium hand. Hero's thought process:

---Villain surely does not have AA or KK. He has previously raised 2.5X when he was looking for a caller. He would not have raised so much when the pot has only $7 in it, expected range of hands, 99 to JJ, AK, AQ.

---Wildman's range of hands could be just about anything because he is riding the tilt-a-whirl, but this action junkie does not have AA or KK because he would not want to kill the hand.

Hero is having trouble deciding whether to call in the hopes that Villain stays in the hand, or going all in in order to isolate Wildman. What should Hero do, fold, call the $275, or all in for $475?

I would call and let Villain make a decision for his chips. If he raises he puts you all in. At that point you are only losing to AA which you believe he doesn't have. So calling is the best option here. The Villain will have to put in another $240 into the pot to play heads up against you. He might do that with a weaker pair than your KK because he has called your AK hand down on a few times

 

[AKQ]

If you use Hud stats you can easily Identify his 3 bet range as AA range 1% then by all means fold.
If he has more 1%+ with his 3 bet range Insta call and deal with the variance later

 

[Cesum Pec]

It was a live game, HUD not an option..

So here we've had 3 ppl who believe I want the Villain in the pot. On another site it was 12 -0 saying to try to get Villain to fold to isolate Wildman. What method are you using to make the decision?

 

[AKQ]

It was a live game, HUD not an option..

So here we've had 3 ppl who believe I want the Villain in the pot. On another site it was 12 -0 saying to try to get Villain to fold to isolate Wildman. What method are you using to make the decision?

Meant to say instantly go all in
Almost no player in the world will only 3bet with AA strict range.
All In to isolate in cash games


In a MTT can make a call and allow others to join if you are aiming for a triple up plus.
% equity of hands don't matter as much as the need for a speedy accumulation of chips would
Kk love to see the flop against AK and jj/AQ/AK in a multi way pot

I'm surprised 12-0 nobody thought about how awesome kk vs qq vs Jj/a10+ is?
Villian might shove over your flat call with qq but fold to your all in.
I'm the 1 of 13 that says flat calling has deception and doesn't scare away weaker dominated hands from making a bad call.
U know the whole table knows wildman is the initial raiser they are more prone to making mistakes here if u flat call.
There is two different options and both have merit
Sad to see so much of the player base be predictable
Oh wait it's great for me as the villian with QQ ty for shoving as 12 outta 12 only shove here with a monster. Fold thanks guys!

 

[fundiver199]

It was a live game, HUD not an option..


So here we've had 3 ppl who believe I want the Villain in the pot. On another site it was 12 -0 saying to try to get Villain to fold to isolate Wildman. What method are you using to make the decision?

Math. The EV of him calling is higher than the EV of him folding, unless he have AA, which he is of course never going to fold. Also remember we can only decide our own actions not his. And the reality here is, if we either call 275 or go all in, we look super strong, and UTG+2 is mostly going to get out of the way, unless he is really bad.

 

[Cesum Pec]

OK, in the other forum, it was 12 - 0 to shove in an effort to isolate. I think those here who said to try to keep Villain in the pot are right and here's how I got to that decision. If anyone sees a flaw in my thought process, please let me know.

I've read lots and lots of poker books and there seems to be very little info out there about side pots. I'm not sure why. Players seem to forget about the need to build side pots in a few specific cases, and because of the stack sizes of H and V in relation to W, this was one of them.


​

I feel certain I'm way ahead of Wildman, about 80/20. If he has a suited ace, the worst I can be if 65/35. With a lot of his hands I can be 85/15. He is going to get lucky or not, winning or losing the main no matter what I do at that point.

Heads up, I am 80/20 vs Villain's range, so if I can get V to call my entire stack, even if Wildman scoops the main, I can cover most of the my loss by winning $200 from V in a significant side pot.

Against them both, I'm 65/35, so the only two hands V can have where he is getting close to the right pot odds to call my all in is if he has AK or AQ suited in a suit that Hero and Wildman are not blocking. If he has any under pair to me, which is most probable, I'm still about 80/20 vs him in the potential side pot, and 70/30 to win everything. I'm giving up 10% in risk to win a 40% larger pot. Heck yeah, I want him in.

I'll admit, I didn't figure this out in the moment. I came home, put all the hands in an odds calculator, including the potential hands when I was yet to act, and ran the numbers. I did want V to play for my entire stack.

Results don't matter, but winning is more fun than losing and I like the mental reward of making good reads. Both players were as I expected. V had JJ. Wildman had QTo. Because I chickened out, unable to make all the calculations in my head on the fly, I went all in to isolate.

I played it wrong. I should have called, V would have pushed all in, and I would have called. As it was, V went in the tank, saying that he was sure he had Wildman beat but was now afraid I had him beat. He folded and showed his JJ. The board was all low junk. I missed out on an additional $475.​

 

[TravelerLloyd]

Well you give a good description of the hand, I am not that analytical, and I try to use KISS, "Keep It Simple Stupid" that for me now, not eeryone else.

KK is a monster and I am playing just like its a MONSTER HAND. I am all in 100% of the time preflop, flop, Turn or River....I am not letting the hand go, I have seen it hit so may sets on the river and 4 of a kinds by the river. It is a power house to be reckoned with and I always seem to win middle to huge pots with it, especially against an AK player that hits the King or AX anything for that matter. No matter what they hit they hit they think that "A" is the key...LOL, for me "I AM KING"

I have discussed this hand with several people, and I believe their recommended action is wrong. I'm trying to decide whether it is me or them that is not understanding the full picture.

UTG, Hero = $475, image is fairly tight, aggressive, has been caught in a couple of bluffs with AK, usually C-bets, hasn't won any large pots but has picked off more than his share of $50 - $100 pots.

UTG+2, Villain = $700, a solid player who has called downed some big bluffs with good reads. Two hands ago he double up thru the Wildman. When Hero got caught with the AK bluffs, both times Villain announced to the table Hero's hand prior to showdown.

Hijack, Wildman = $275, has been all-in dozens of times in the last 3 hours, stack has been up and down, has been caught repeatedly shoving all in on draws, has bought in probably 5 times. He is wild and not in a smart way. His stack has been as high as $700, but a couple of hands ago he lost about $300+ to Villain.


UTG, Hero wakes up with KK, bets $5. I bet small because the table is playing fairly wild and I think I have trained the table that I will fold $5 opening bets to re-raises. I'm trying to make it easy on someone to re-raise. Pot = $8

Action folds to Villain who insta-raises to $35. Pot = $43

Action folds to Wildman who goes all in for $275. Pot = $318

Action folds to Hero who goes into the tank, in part to disguise my premium hand. Hero's thought process:

---Villain surely does not have AA or KK. He has previously raised 2.5X when he was looking for a caller. He would not have raised so much when the pot has only $7 in it, expected range of hands, 99 to JJ, AK, AQ.

---Wildman's range of hands could be just about anything because he is riding the tilt-a-whirl, but this action junkie does not have AA or KK because he would not want to kill the hand.

Hero is having trouble deciding whether to call in the hopes that Villain stays in the hand, or going all in in order to isolate Wildman. What should Hero do, fold, call the $275, or all in for $475?

 

[fundiver199]

If the main Villain is any kind of reasonable, he would have folded JJ regardless of your action. As I wrote already, its not like, just calling 275$ with 200$ behind look any weaker than going all in. In fact you can even argue, it look stronger. So I dont think, you missed out on anything. The donk kind of killed your action against JJ, because it forced you to turn your hand face up. But since you got the stack of the donk, its all good :thefinger

 

[quant1986]

If the main Villain is any kind of reasonable, he would have folded JJ regardless of your action. As I wrote already, its not like, just calling 275$ with 200$ behind look any weaker than going all in. In fact you can even argue, it look stronger. So I dont think, you missed out on anything. The donk kind of killed your action against JJ, because it forced you to turn your hand face up. But since you got the stack of the donk, its all good :thefinger

Yes I think calling cold 3bet with more than half stack looks even stronger