$20 NLHE 6-max: Range analysis on multiway FD flop?

[Alucard]

iPoker - €0.20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (UTG): 196.25 BB
CO: 57.25 BB (VPIP: 51.24, PFR: 5.58, 3Bet Preflop: 5.91, hands: 829)
BTN: 67 BB (VPIP: 22.73, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
SB: 62.35 BB (VPIP: 27.27, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 31.25, PFR: 18.75, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 32)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has xx
Hero raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop : (12.5 BB, 4 players) 4h Th 8h
BB checks, Hero


What's our betting range, xc range & xr range here? Assuming all players are decent. (Which isn't the case here)

 

[Alucard]

bump
So we will continue 4s,Ts,8s,Ahx, All flushes, Overpairs with a heart(probably).
Any other hands other than that?

 

[xdeucesx]

Mind posting your hand? Won't show up on my browser, just showing "xx". If you get a second to add your hand info, I'll post my thoughts for sure.

 

[Alucard]

Mind posting your hand? Won't show up on my browser, just showing "xx". If you get a second to add your hand info, I'll post my thoughts for sure.

there is no hand.
I'm asking with what hands we should bet, check call or check raise with. Range wise

 

[Matt Vaughan]

This spot is SUPER villain dependent so I feel like just saying "assume everyone is decent" is not that helpful.

If you want like a breakdown of the board and our preflop ranges and stuff... use a solver imo.

Here would be my take. We are playing a bloated, multiway pot with a couple opponents who are not particularly deep-stacked. The board is monotone AND dynamic, so we are going to lean on betting pretty merged here and only really including bluffs that can improve to nutted type holdings for the most part.

I can't really say what our betting, xc, and xr ranges are when I don't know your preflop range. Anything I say here could only be based on assumptions of what that range looks like, but with that being said, I'd probably go for a bet with most of my two overs and a single heart hand, all my top pair hands and overpairs, ALL my sets (including top set).

Most of our holdings besides flushes are quite vulnerable, and even our weaker flushes don't love giving free cards, so I'd probably go for x/raises only with the nut flush, and some AhX holdings that I don't mind checking once and sometimes improving on turn if it checks through.

If you want a balanced strategy you'd need to do a **** ton of mixing here bc you don't want to show up on the turn on a 4th heart never being able to have the Ah in your hand. Or the board pairing and never being able to have boats. But in general I'd be betting my most vulnerable value hands, checking my least vulnerable ones to check raise and check call, and check raising a lot of the AhX combos.

I want most of my check raises to have the intention of getting it in. I will have very few check calls here. This is due again to the short stack, bloated pot nature of this hand.

 

[Hujiko]

So four players on the flop on a wet 3 of a suit board.

If it was the first hand on a table or we all seem good players (your assumption) then I just play ABC poker in a multi-way pot. My assumption is that all other players will play similar so not much use in check-bluff-raising as they will only bet their value hands.

cBet Range
All my value hands (JJ or better) except the nut flushes
Check Call
Most of my nut flush hands will go in my check call range but some e.g. below A7 might be in my value range.
All my A or K high flush draws are in my check call range range.
Check Fold
Any hand worse then JJ might be in my check-fold range depending on who bets.
Low flush draws without any other draw/strength will be in my check-fold range.
Check Raise
No hands go here.

 

[Figaroo2]

Hopefully you got the link in the hangout.
CO is a fish from stats, him calling will allow the others pot odds to call with all sorts of junk. So they are likely to pick up a lot of draws on that board.
In that case I'm betting with all my cat 1 hands to charge the draws.
A lot depends on whether we have Ah.
On its own I check call it on the flop just to see the general level of interest. If it checks around Id bet it on the turn and probably bluff river with it if we whiff.
I agree there isnt much point in having a CR range here and if you want one v 3 players I would make it a made flush probably without the ace so QJ KQ KJ all hearts to allow the nut flush draw to stack off against you.
As regards check call, its mainly weaker heart draws and pair gutshot combos, It depends on whether we block a good heart.

 

[tatalarata]

betting on this scary flop is going to look pretty strong
checkcalling seems weak/risky, maybe with super strong hands or draws
depends on what you have and your image etc obv
in a vacuum Id either bet half the pot or just check fold.

 

[Aballinamion]

Analysing UTG's ranges on a monotone flop

iPoker - €0.20 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

Hero (UTG): 196.25 BB
CO: 57.25 BB (VPIP: 51.24, PFR: 5.58, 3Bet Preflop: 5.91, Hands: 829)
BTN: 67 BB (VPIP: 22.73, PFR: 13.64, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 22)
SB: 62.35 BB (VPIP: 27.27, PFR: 18.18, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 13)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 31.25, PFR: 18.75, 3Bet Preflop: 6.25, Hands: 32)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has xx
Hero raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop : (12.5 BB, 4 players) 4h Th 8h
BB checks, Hero


What's our betting range, xc range & xr range here? Assuming all players are decent. (Which isn't the case here)

Hello there Alucard, thank you for making such a complicated question!
In order to know our betting/checking/raising range, we must know which ranges Hero is opening from UTG (XX?). For this example it seems that you are opening a pocket pair, because otherwise you would've use, for example 'Hero XY'. But Iam just speculating.
Well, it doesn't matter, the fact is that Hero is deep stacked which could alters opening range a little. Perhaps hero saw two weak players in position (CO and BTN) and tried to explore them. Considering all of these factors, we assign for UTG's ranges:

A) Hands that UTG Deep Stacked will open 100% of times: 99+, AJs+, KJs+, QJs, AJo+ 7.24%

B) Hands that UTG Deep Stacked will open 50% of times: 88-77, ATs-A8s, KTs, QTs, JTs, T9s, ATo, KJo+ 5.73%

C) Hands that UTG Deep Stacke will open 30% of times or less: 66-22, 98s, KJo, QJo 4.73%

Assuming that your team of Villains (CO, BTN and BB) are decent players they are calling here with all the pocket pairs, some suited connectors/broadways and only. The top of their range I believe they would be 3-betting/Squeezing, specially CO and BTN who has position over the rest of the table.
BB can have a pretty wider range with almost anything, because the odds seems fantastic to call with 50% range when there are already too much blinds invested on the pot.

the postflop

The Flop

4h Th 8h

What is out betting range? Depend on your reading and the actual perceived range of your Villain, because for example, let's suppose you are opening here UTG's range A:
AJo, AQo and AKo, first: it will depend here if you have a hearts on its combos or not, and if you have the hearts of aces or the hearts of kings, it changes quite a bit our checking/betting range.
Are you betting here if you have one combo of hearts, of example one Jack of Hearts, one Queen of Hearts, etc. (for bluff).
Now the suited broadway combos AKs, AQs, AJs, KQs, KJs and QJs: if we have the combos of hearts I am totally on board of betting the non-nutted made flushes which are only QJ. The flushes with KQ and better we would check more because we are most likely to have the best hand and we want to bluff less in situations like this.
These broadways of others suited combos, such as spades, clubs and diamonds, we would be check-folding.
Pocket pairs: all the pocket pairs without a hearts on its combos are not very happy here, specially AA, KK, QQ and JJ because we are not blocking anything.
If we do bet here with AA, KK, QQ versus "decent players" in position, we are risking get raised for better hands and thus get commited to the pot since our equity is so strong.
"Decent players" will have range advantage here, specially if we do not have AA with ace of hearts or KK with king of hearts on its combos.
Which bluffs do we have on a flop like this? Almost no bluffs, either we have AA, KK,etc with a hearts or we do have TT with a set or we have the flush nuts itself, or we do have a potential draw for flushes turn/river.
On spots where we have no bluffs, we do not bet our value range, because we would be unbalancing our postflop game.
Besides, we are out of position in relation to two "decent players" and we don't know what the hell BB had called with. This is a high variance spot and we believe that 100% of our range is going by checking this flop here.
Hands that we are check-calling are AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT and 99 I don't know if we want to go here. Consider that all these mentioned pocket pairs are best if they have the hearts on its combos, however, depending on which "decent player" bet this flop, we can be check-calling with AA, KK without any hearts on its combos and/or raising our strong pocket pairs with a hearts on its combos, then we would be "semi-bluffing".
TT we are check-calling too because I don't see why to bluff top set on a very monotone configuration.
Now, assuming all players are decent, we are check-raising this flop specially with bluffs, for example our off-suited AJ, AQ and AK with the ace of heart or even the kicker of hearts are good to be check-raising for bluff on a flop like this, since we do not have the flush yet and we can put a lot of pressure into TPs, Two Pair and Sets hands, and some decent players are folding when you check-raise here, out of position when the flop is monotone. However calling with our off-suited broadways which have hearts on its combos is also fine.
Besides the rest of our range, I think we are calling here with all of our made flushes, I don't see many reason to be bluffing nutted hands.
Of course we are considering just UTG's range A. There are the ranges B and C, where you will, of course have much more bluffs, depending on the situation.
Sorry if I made some mistake, sometimes analyse a hand is not so simple as it seems.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Aballinamion]

bump
So we will continue 4s,Ts,8s,Ahx, All flushes, Overpairs with a heart(probably).
Any other hands other than that?

Considering more ranges B and C, what is your check-folding frequency here?

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Aballinamion]

thank you

Here would be my take. We are playing a bloated, multiway pot with a couple opponents who are not particularly deep-stacked. The board is monotone AND dynamic, so we are going to lean on betting pretty merged here and only really including bluffs that can improve to nutted type holdings for the most part.

Totally on board with that

I can't really say what our betting, xc, and xr ranges are when I don't know your preflop range. Anything I say here could only be based on assumptions of what that range looks like, but with that being said, I'd probably go for a bet with most of my two overs and a single heart hand, all my top pair hands and overpairs, ALL my sets (including top set).

I agree with that because Villains in position are broken stack types that could easily get scared of the flush.

Most of our holdings besides flushes are quite vulnerable, and even our weaker flushes don't love giving free cards, so I'd probably go for x/raises only with the nut flush, and some AhX holdings that I don't mind checking once and sometimes improving on turn if it checks through.

Here I we are talking about balance, if we can x/raise the nut flush we can also check-raise the semi-bluff with AhX, although checking, and check-calling are not the end of the world, specially if whatever CO bets folds, folds and it is up to us, or if UTG checks, CO checks, BTN bets and our decision will change a lot depending if BB is getting involved or not because now we are out of position to make this call in relation to CO.

If you want a balanced strategy you'd need to do a **** ton of mixing here bc you don't want to show up on the turn on a 4th heart never being able to have the Ah in your hand. Or the board pairing and never being able to have boats. But in general I'd be betting my most vulnerable value hands, checking my least vulnerable ones to check raise and check call, and check raising a lot of the AhX combos.

Yes, makes a lot of sense


Thank you very much for your analysis, I appreciated very much.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[gustav197poker]

I think it is necessary to make a special adaptation in this hand.
1) So let's assume that all villains are solid players, this implies:
* All Vs will have full stack
A) ** BB can limp a low pocket, or maybe 2 suit cards with an overcard, he could also do it with 2 overcards and a weak kicker such as a J, and descending scale more and more.
B) *** CO: I would really like to take advantage of this nice sample> 800 hands but well, let's think that it is a regular of 21/18, to say the least. Basically the limper range could be standardized for the purpose of better simplification.
You could also clean suitable half-scale connectors: 7-8; 9-T; T-J. + **
C) BTN: ** + *** + spaced connectors for example 8-Ts; Q-Ts.

Hero Rank (Approach):

Bets: sets + overcards with heart scale in the highest value + Jd-9o / d.

Check / call: double major pairs + overpairs with blocker (QQ; JJ) + semi-high scale flush combinations, with maximum value in Q.

Check / fold: double bottom pairs + top pair dominated in neutral kicker + backdoors stairs + gutshots + FD with medium-low scale blocker.

Check / raise: Top pair with blocker + nuts for this texture.

Greetings.

 

[0815am]

This is a very poor spot. And a very rare spot too. So I wouldn’t worry very much about balance.

I think I would check almost all range here So probably bet any set and any overpaid with heart. Any made flush for protection if it’s non nut