$20 NL HE Full Ring: bottom set with interesting runout (16NL)

[Station_Master]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.10/$.20

Table Format

Full (8-10 seats)

VP$IP

17

PFR

14

Currency

$

(UTG): $32.33 (202 bb)
(UTG+1): $6.00 (38 bb)
(MP): $16.00 (100 bb)
(MP+1): $7.77 (49 bb)
(CO): $26.76 (167 bb)
villain (BU): $18.35 (115 bb)
(SB): $16.86 (105 bb)
hero (BB): $27.97 (175 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.24) Hero is BB with 2♣ 2♦
2 players fold, (MP) raises to $0.32, 2 players fold, villain (BU) calls $0.32, 1 fold, hero (BB) calls $0.16

Flop: ($1.04) 2♥ J♥ Q♦ (3 players)
hero (BB) checks, (MP) bets $0.50, villain (BU) raises to $1.50, hero (BB) raises to $3.52, (MP) folds, villain (BU) calls $2.02

Turn: ($8.58) Q♥ (2 players)
hero (BB) bets $4.32, villain (BU) calls $4.32

River: ($17.22) K♥ (2 players)
hero?

Thoughts? Flop is first inflection point, raise or just call? I expect to have the best hand alot given villain just flatted pre so unlikely to have QQ and JJ, probably alot of draws. On the turn we now lose to QJ but I am expecting all flush draws to call. The river is very interesting and I wasn't sure the best play: jam, check-call or check fold?

 

[Aballinamion]

(UTG): $32.33 (202 bb)
(UTG+1): $6.00 (38 bb)
(MP): $16.00 (100 bb)
(MP+1): $7.77 (49 bb)
(CO): $26.76 (167 bb)
villain (BU): $18.35 (115 bb)
(SB): $16.86 (105 bb)
hero (BB): $27.97 (175 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.24) Hero is BB with 2♣ 2♦
2 players fold, (MP) raises to $0.32, 2 players fold, villain (BU) calls $0.32, 1 fold, hero (BB) calls $0.16

Flop: ($1.04) 2♥ J♥ Q♦ (3 players)
hero (BB) checks, (MP) bets $0.50, villain (BU) raises to $1.50, hero (BB) raises to $3.52, (MP) folds, villain (BU) calls $2.02

Turn: ($8.58) Q♥ (2 players)
hero (BB) bets $4.32, villain (BU) calls $4.32

River: ($17.22) K♥ (2 players)
hero?

Thoughts? Flop is first inflection point, raise or just call? I expect to have the best hand alot given villain just flatted pre so unlikely to have QQ and JJ, probably alot of draws. On the turn we now lose to QJ but I am expecting all flush draws to call. The river is very interesting and I wasn't sure the best play: jam, check-call or check fold?

Yeah, it is okay to raise the flop when you have more info about Villains. And you are against two opponents OOP.
The problem of raising in this situation is that, although you have the nuts for the flop most of times, you will have to give up to a lot of rivers that completed sequences and flushes from both of your opponents.
Plus, MP have plenty of AA, KK, QQ and JJ (because you didn’t 3-bet/Squeeze preflop).
It is interesting to raise to protect our entire range from straights and flushes draws, however we are going to do this raise only a couple of times having precisely 22 and QJ that have called preflop.
In a situation like this we won’t show a lot of QQ and JJ because those hands would have squeezed preflop most of times not to play OOP versus two villains.
Also AQ and sometimes KQ would have squeezed not called into a 3-way pot OOP.
If I was playing this hand I would call the flop to continue calling turn-river given a good price.
Nonetheless, if my opponent elects to polarize( I would have to fold on the turn or on the river.
If I make the pot grows faster on the flop, even when it comes flushes and straights turn-river, I will have to call knowing that I will be losing a lot of times for hearts more than losing for AT.
Summarizing, we don’t own a lot of value hands that could raise the flop versus MP and BTN, and this means a lot of strength for those who read it proper.
On the other side we have plenty of bluffs, our draws of hearts bluffs, our sequence bluffs, whatever.
Having QJ is not so good because we would have top two pair and most likely dominating villains ranges and get a lot of folds of losing hands and a lot of calls/raises of hands that beat us.

 

[Station_Master]

Yeah, it is okay to raise the flop when you have more info about Villains. And you are against two opponents OOP.
The problem of raising in this situation is that, although you have the nuts for the flop most of times, you will have to give up to a lot of rivers that completed sequences and flushes from both of your opponents.
Plus, MP have plenty of AA, KK, QQ and JJ (because you didn’t 3-bet/Squeeze preflop).
It is interesting to raise to protect our entire range from straights and flushes draws, however we are going to do this raise only a couple of times having precisely 22 and QJ that have called preflop.
In a situation like this we won’t show a lot of QQ and JJ because those hands would have squeezed preflop most of times not to play OOP versus two villains.
Also AQ and sometimes KQ would have squeezed not called into a 3-way pot OOP.
If I was playing this hand I would call the flop to continue calling turn-river given a good price.
Nonetheless, if my opponent elects to polarize( I would have to fold on the turn or on the river.
If I make the pot grows faster on the flop, even when it comes flushes and straights turn-river, I will have to call knowing that I will be losing a lot of times for hearts more than losing for AT.
Summarizing, we don’t own a lot of value hands that could raise the flop versus MP and BTN, and this means a lot of strength for those who read it proper.
On the other side we have plenty of bluffs, our draws of hearts bluffs, our sequence bluffs, whatever.
Having QJ is not so good because we would have top two pair and most likely dominating villains ranges and get a lot of folds of losing hands and a lot of calls/raises of hands that beat us.

Flop is interesting as villain cant really have QQ or JJ either given he flatted pre and would likely 3bet those hands. So I put him on alot of draws that would have to continue and I could get value from. It's true the original raiser could have JJ or QQ but in that case I am probably getting stacked anyway, I also thought it unlikely given his bet sizing pre and on the flop.

As I put villain on a draw I was worried that by not raising and taking the betting lead he might check back blank turns and get a free card.

 

[Aballinamion]

The good side is that the turn gives you a Full-House, and you can play the river in many forms: you could’ve check, bet a little to induce a shove, or shoving to get calls from flushes, because BTN will not have QQ, JJ or KK, otherwise we expect it would have raised preflop versus MP...
As I said, when you do not complete your full-house it would be a hard time for you to continue with your sets.
Now, we gonna jam this river a fair chunk of times and if happens Villain to have a Straight Flush, good for him/her! It doesn’t matter because they’re just a few combos in the galaxy of combinations!
If it is a real deep stack pot I would evaluate the situation and try to control the pot a little more, but even so try to gain VALUE over the vast majority of combos there are not the absolute nuts.

 

[Aballinamion]

Flop is interesting as villain cant really have QQ or JJ either given he flatted pre and would likely 3bet those hands. So I put him on alot of draws that would have to continue and I could get value from. It's true the original raiser could have JJ or QQ but in that case I am probably getting stacked anyway, I also thought it unlikely given his bet sizing pre and on the flop.

As I put villain on a draw I was worried that by not raising and taking the betting lead he might check back blank turns and get a free card.

It is a nice worry about the free card on the turn. But you gotta ask yourself if you are betting for value or for bluff, not because you intend to block or of a free river card: in this case it would be a bet for value, trying to gain over his dominated hands and making the pot grow enough so we could shove on the river for value no matter the income.

 

[Station_Master]

It is a nice worry about the free card on the turn. But you gotta ask yourself if you are betting for value or for bluff, not because you intend to block or of a free river card: in this case it would be a bet for value, trying to gain over his dominated hands and making the pot grow enough so we could shove on the river for value no matter the income.

It's still definitely for value, just a case of whether I should do the betting or hope villain will, and I think he might not on the turn.

Turn seemed very good as flushes arent folding. But the river is awful as it makes it less likely he has a flush, I still lose to 2 combos of QJs and now 2 straight flush combos.

In game I took the view that I am going to call off anyway so I shoved and hope flush call e.g. A9s, A8s, A5s, A4s, 98s, there arent actually that many combos that make sense, so i wonder in hindsight if this was the right play. Also do these hands make the flop raise or just the combo draws? I cant see me ever folding though so possibly it's just a cooler (villain had T9s)

 

[Aballinamion]

It's still definitely for value, just a case of whether I should do the betting or hope villain will, and I think he might not on the turn.

Turn seemed very good as flushes arent folding. But the river is awful as it makes it less likely he has a flush, I still lose to 2 combos of QJs and now 2 straight flush combos.

In game I took the view that I am going to call off anyway so I shoved and hope flush call e.g. A9s, A8s, A5s, A4s, 98s, there arent actually that many combos that make sense, so i wonder in hindsight if this was the right play. Also do these hands make the flop raise or just the combo draws? I cant see me ever folding though so possibly it's just a cooler (villain had T9s)

Now you asked a hard question. Sometimes I would raise these hands on the flop for bluff, but I’m not villain. I think we can raise all of them on the flop, the aces suited of hearts and the combo draws, because we have position. Only villain and you could’ve answered this question.?
You don’t see yourself folding to this never? What if your effective stack was +300 BB and villain’s effective stack +300 BB, would you still go all in? Considering the texture of the board on the river?
Think about it.
And try not to put the result so early, wait for a couple of replies first. Many players will change their analysis depending on results and this is not correct. As I said, if you jam river and Villain has the absolute nuts, good for it!

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Standard spot to defend, really dont see any reason to squeeze with a small pair.

Flop
Prefect flop and action. I would also put in the 3-bet here, because I dont think, BTN is raising with nothing, and if he has something, I dont think, he is going to raise-fold. I also agree with others, that you almost have the nuts here, because he would most likely have 3-bet JJ or QQ preflop. So when MP fold, my mindset here is definitely, that you have the best hand. As for sizing I think, it could have been a bit larger. But your sizing still set it up for a easy all-in on the river, so I am ok with it.

Turn
Flushdraw came in, but the board also paired, so now you have the baby boat. Its great in the sense, that now you can get paid by a flush, which is definitely part of his range. But it is worth nothing, that QJ is also part of his range, and that now beat you.

River
Now you lose to KQ and KK. However KQ should not raise the flop, and KK should have raised preflop. You also lose to AT of hearts, which is now the royal flush and to T9 of hearts, which is now a straight flush. But even so I dont think, we can check-fold, because if we check, an A high flush might jam thinking, its for value. The reason to check-call rather than jam yourself is to induce bluffs or overvaluation. But on this runout and given the action with a 3-bet on the flop I just dont see, which hands he can arrive with here, that would now bluff or overvalue if checked to. Like if he somehow has AQ, which is now trips, is he going to jam if checked to? I dont think so. So for me the play here is to jam and hope to get called by a worse hand, which will mainly be an A high flush.

 

[Station_Master]

Now you asked a hard question. Sometimes I would raise these hands on the flop for bluff, but I’m not villain. I think we can raise all of them on the flop, the aces suited of hearts and the combo draws, because we have position. Only villain and you could’ve answered this question.?
You don’t see yourself folding to this never? What if your effective stack was +300 BB and villain’s effective stack +300 BB, would you still go all in? Considering the texture of the board on the river?
Think about it.
And try not to put the result so early, wait for a couple of replies first. Many players will change their analysis depending on results and this is not correct. As I said, if you jam river and Villain has the absolute nuts, good for it!

I mean never folding at this stack depth. Obviously much deeper it's probably a check call depending on bet size

 

[kitchy65]

Thoughts? Flop is first inflection point, raise or just call? I expect to have the best hand alot given villain just flatted pre so unlikely to have QQ and JJ, probably alot of draws. On the turn we now lose to QJ but I am expecting all flush draws to call. The river is very interesting and I wasn't sure the best play: jam, check-call or check fold?

It's easy to say you didn't 3-bet pre-flop, so lost opportunity for information.
I presume you would be doing this sometimes with your small PPs? folding them too on occasion?

So out of position with 22, flatting the raise here to 'set mine' is also okay with 'miss and muck' hands. Because it difficult to realize equity post flop with low PP's.

I personally would have called the post flop 3-bet (on that board layout), and looking to check-call on remaining streets

My thinking here would be the button is chasing away the flush draws to protect his top pair/set. Or inflating the pot because he had the nut flush hand himself. You can dismiss any straight draw at this point, unless it's the dreaded 'Royal'.

You chose to be super aggressive, but when villain called your $3.52 ...I would continued in the hand as stated earlier.
Thinking he was no longer one pairing with ace kicker. I'd put him on at the very least holding 2-pairs or sitting with the nut flush draw.

However, once the Q came on the turn, I do like your bet and love the BU only calling.

I'm inclined to believe he has AQ, or the nut flush here with something like A8h. because it hit, and he only called.
If he had the FH himself, it would have made sense for him to ship it at this point with half his money in the pot, believing you had hit your flush and would pay him off anyway.

....but the paired board appears to have scared him.


Even if he was trapping with JQ, JJ, QQ (let you hang yourself) or even KQ and got lucky on the river, it wouldn't matter.
I'd be pot-betting the river for value.

Checking the river would be okay too...reason being, you don't have the nuts.

But always checking to call a river bet, never folding to someone who only had $10 left to put in.

That wouldn't be a hero fold... it would be a donk fold!

What did he have?

 

[kitchy65]

Flop
Prefect flop and action. I would also put in the 3-bet here, because I dont think, BTN is raising with nothing, and if he has something, I dont think, he is going to raise-fold.

Why not?...there is nothing screams louder "Hey guys, I have a set" than the 4-bet on the flop here.

The villains call indicates he has a good hand and isn't afraid of a set.
He could (if he was a good player) easily fold out top pair here.

I think JQ continues, but jams the turn bet....Any J-hand or straight draw is in the muck on the turn.
AQ possibly goes all way now, but reluctantly.

KK would be a fishy continuation on that turn bet and deserving of being whacked on the head with an Anne Summers Rampant Rabbit!.

So IMO villain was floating with a monster or had the nut flush draw.

 

[Station_Master]

Why not?...there is nothing screams louder "Hey guys, I have a set" than the 4-bet on the flop here.

The villains call indicates he has a good hand and isn't afraid of a set.
He could (if he was a good player) easily fold out top pair here.

I think JQ continues, but jams the turn bet....Any J-hand or straight draw is in the muck on the turn.
AQ possibly goes all way now, but reluctantly.

KK would be a fishy continuation on that turn bet and deserving of being whacked on the head with an Anne Summers Rampant Rabbit!.

So IMO villain was floating with a monster or had the nut flush draw.

Flop
Prefect flop and action. I would also put in the 3-bet here, because I dont think, BTN is raising with nothing, and if he has something, I dont think, he is going to raise-fold. I also agree with others, that you almost have the nuts here, because he would most likely have 3-bet JJ or QQ preflop. So when MP fold, my mindset here is definitely, that you have the best hand. As for sizing I think, it could have been a bit larger. But your sizing still set it up for a easy all-in on the river, so I am ok with it.

Never 3betting this preflop I think call is the only play. Note on the flop it's a 3bet not 4bet, yes I know it looks strong that's why I wasnt sure but even calling looks strong, so I think raising is better. Interesting fundiver you said I could go larger, I guess I kept it fairly small to get calls and not scare everyone off completely! But it's a fair point that everything probably calls anyway to a larger raise.

I did jam on the river and sadly got snapped off by Th9h., which was unfortunate!

 

[fundiver199]

Why not?...there is nothing screams louder "Hey guys, I have a set" than the 4-bet on the flop here.

It was only a 3-bet, but yes it looks very strong. But so does cold calling out of position, and the issue is, how do we then play the turn? If we play in flow and check to him, then we allow him to check back his draws and essentially get two free cards to draw out on us. Thats the whole problem with being out of position, and why I want to take the initiative, when we essentially flopped the nuts, since we think, he most likely dont have QQ or JJ.

He could (if he was a good player) easily fold out top pair here.

But a good player is most likely not raising top pair on the flop in the first place.

I did jam on the river and sadly got snapped off by Th9h., which was unfortunate!

It was but I think, its mostly just a cooler. Admittedly his range is very condensed after the flop 3-bet, but there are not that many combos, that beat you either. AT of hearts, T9 of hearts, QJ of spades and QJ of clubs, and thats probably just about it, unless he cold call QJo preflop, which is kind of loose against an MP open. So even if you only get called by the nut flush, and even if he only have that as suited AX, you should be good more than 50% of the time.