$2 NLHE Full Ring: $ : Are we betting too small in this spot? what do you think about the hand?

[Casey55]

$2 NLHE Full Ring: $ : Are we betting too small in this spot? what do you think about the hand?

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 9 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

UTG (Hero): $4.22 (211 bb)
UTG+1: $0.44 (22 bb)
MP: $0.61 (31 bb)
MP+1: $1.84 (92 bb)
LP: $2.04 (102 bb)
CO: $0.79 (40 bb)
BU: $2.38 (119 bb)
SB: $0.91 (46 bb)
BB: $1.18 (59 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is UTG with A♦ Q♦
Hero raises to $0.06, 7 players fold, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.13) 6♠ A♠ T♥ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.06, BB calls $0.06

Turn: ($0.25) A♣ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.07, BB calls $0.07

River: ($0.39) 5♦ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.12, BB calls $0.12

 

[Aballinamion]

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 9 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

UTG (Hero): $4.22 (211 bb)
UTG+1: $0.44 (22 bb)
MP: $0.61 (31 bb)
MP+1: $1.84 (92 bb)
LP: $2.04 (102 bb)
CO: $0.79 (40 bb)
BU: $2.38 (119 bb)
SB: $0.91 (46 bb)
BB: $1.18 (59 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is UTG with A♦ Q♦
Hero raises to $0.06, 7 players fold, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.13) 6♠ A♠ T♥ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.06, BB calls $0.06

Turn: ($0.25) A♣ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.07, BB calls $0.07

River: ($0.39) 5♦ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.12, BB calls $0.12

If you believe Villain/BB is weak enough to be paying with worst aces and non-sense hands on the river, why not to size our bets a little more? But if you believe BB is passive enough that could be trapping strong hands, bet small and see the action.
On boards like this we have simply almost all the combos of possible aces, so we imagine Villain paying us with Tx most of times and we don't know if Tx will keep paying 3 streets of value, plus a bomb on the river.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[quant1986]

I would size up turn and river especially two flush board and going for max value. He may fold some weak 6x (OTT) or Tx (OTR) but you gain from values when he held weak ace.

I don’t see merits using small turn bet to keep range wide, perhaps you can get more check raise actions from aggressive players if they perceive your turn cbet is weak.

 

[gustav197poker]

I can understand the smallest size on the flop since we are limiting gutshot combos like QK; QJ. And the QQ pocket. On the other hand, the spin is a good street for us because the board now balances the aces, so the villain could float some middle pockets like JJ or TT that limit the KJ; QK; QJ; Ax; Kx.
Therefore, a larger size is possible in turn. Similarly, in the river we have several combos V that could defend themselves. In fact, all failed draw combos could become bluffs for heroes.
Greetings.

 

[fundiver199]

I think, you are missing a lot of value with that bet sizing. Against his stack size and at 2NL I would probably even go as far as to set this up for a river jam. You are playing for pennies, and he will find a reason to call. For example:

Flop pot 0,13 bet 0,10

Turn pot 0,33 bet 0,30

River pot 0,93 bet 0,72 putting him all in

Yes its large, but I want to stack this guy, if he has the last A in his hand.

 

[jaworek1405]

Hello, I agree with guys. Bets on every street are to small. With top pair and second best kicker I prefer bet for at least 67% of the pot, because on the flop are some draws to straight and flush, for example opponent can defend big blind with qjs and with this hand he can have 12 outs to win this hand. More possible is that he can have flush draw, even he has only flush draw we should bet more, we don't want give him cheaply to see next cards. When I have flush draw I always call bet for 50% of the pot, because for me it is good price to see next cards. To sum up I play at least 67% of the pot on every street.

 

[JimmyBrizzy]

As others have already said, this bet sizing is no good. At 2NL I think you can open up preflop with a higher amount as well.

 

[Casey55]

I think I could have gone bit bigger on the turn my thought process was to bet an amount that worse can still call with like some paired Tx, possibly a 6, some gutshots and FD. If I bet larger I was thinking the Tx and 6x would fold aswell as all weaker PP and only getting called by Ax and FD, on the turn I thought it would be hard for villain to have much so I bet small, but probably too small giving the FD and gutshots like QJ and KJ great odds to hit. Thoughts on this?

 

[Aballinamion]

I think I could have gone bit bigger on the turn my thought process was to bet an amount that worse can still call with like some paired Tx, possibly a 6, some gutshots and FD. If I bet larger I was thinking the Tx and 6x would fold aswell as all weaker PP and only getting called by Ax and FD, on the turn I thought it would be hard for villain to have much so I bet small, but probably too small giving the FD and gutshots like QJ and KJ great odds to hit. Thoughts on this?

The problem here is that the another ace OTT is not a good card for our range. We now have almost all the combos of Ax (75% of combos) and we should think how can we extract value from all of its BB calling range, and not only for the times Villain/BB also has an Ax on its range, which is not very possible here.
Either betting the turn small or big alters a little the way the hand was played. If you check-behind the turn also it would not make a great difference, because we don't need to be scared of draws everytime, because Villains will not present always FD's and SD's on their ranges, and when they are broken stack like this we are going anyways when we do hit a trips/set, TPTK or any strong value hand.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Casey55]

The problem here is that the another ace OTT is not a good card for our range. We now have almost all the combos of Ax (75% of combos) and we should think how can we extract value from all of its BB calling range, and not only for the times Villain/BB also has an Ax on its range, which is not very possible here.
Either betting the turn small or big alters a little the way the hand was played. If you check-behind the turn also it would not make a great difference, because we don't need to be scared of draws everytime, because Villains will not present always FD's and SD's on their ranges, and when they are broken stack like this we are going anyways when we do hit a trips/set, TPTK or any strong value hand.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Sorry Carlos I am unsure what you are trying to say, I agree with your points. Are you saying basically that betting or checking turn doesn't matter so much? you say the A is bad for our range do you mean its bad because now villain will have not much to continue with and we have all of the Ax combos?

Carlos I figured betting small flop we extract value from possible Tx, 6x, PP and draws and on turn we can bet small for same reason, extracting value from weaker PP and Tx, and although we can get called by draws that we would be giving great odds too, like you mentioned that is not their whole range so this is why I bet small to target the weaker pairs for value. can you elaborate how you would have played the hand and, should we choose bigger sizing to protect versus some of those draws on the turn? even though that is not their whole range. the general consensus I am getting from everyone is to bet larger and I think that is good advice I thank you all, here though I was having an inner battle with myself because there is 1ace left in deck and wanted to extract value from weaker hands, i think the turn maybe should have gone 1/3 pot so about 4.5bb and river maybe another 1 or 2bb on the river to make it about 1/3 pot and target the weaker holdings? do you guys think Tx would call larger bets here? villain did call river and had 99, so my strategy did work but I do not want to be result orientated

 

[Aballinamion]

Sorry Carlos I am unsure what you are trying to say, I agree with your points. Are you saying basically that betting or checking turn doesn't matter so much? you say the A is bad for our range do you mean its bad because now villain will have not much to continue with and we have all of the Ax combos?

Exactly what I meant. Suppose you open KK, someone calls heads-up and the flop comes KKA, do you believe this is a good flop for you? Which hands are paying here, Ax?
Villains will not have much to continue, we must let them either hit something that will make them believe we have nothing because we checked or we must check thoughtout the river and expect some weird hand to bet vs missed c-bet.

Carlos I figured betting small flop we extract value from possible Tx, 6x, PP and draws and on turn we can bet small for same reason, extracting value from weaker PP and Tx, and although we can get called by draws that we would be giving great odds too, like you mentioned that is not their whole range so this is why I bet small to target the weaker pairs for value. can you elaborate how you would have played the hand and, should we choose bigger sizing to protect versus some of those draws on the turn? even though that is not their whole range. the general consensus I am getting from everyone is to bet larger and I think that is good advice I thank you all, here though I was having an inner battle with myself because there is 1ace left in deck and wanted to extract value from weaker hands, i think the turn maybe should have gone 1/3 pot so about 4.5bb and river maybe another 1 or 2bb on the river to make it about 1/3 pot and target the weaker holdings? do you guys think Tx would call larger bets here? villain did call river and had 99, so my strategy did work but I do not want to be result orientated

Well, if Villain is capable of calling with 99, it would certainly be calling with Tx types and we believe it would be folding its 6x. Considering how weak this player is, you should have go for a bigger bet on the turn to put Villain all-in on 100% of rivers because when you bet more on the turn, and Villain is broken stack, Villain will have much more odds for calling an all-in OTR, but when you bet small OTT, you cannot shove the river because now Villain's odds would be much worse.
Summarizing: against weak players that tend to overplay their ranges, we are going to bet strong on the flop, strong OTT to shove almost 100% of rivers or make a huge overbet if both are deep. When they are short it is even more easier.
We are not being result oriented, we are assuming that if Villain is capable of calling 99 here three streets of value, it would be also calling Tx, which is a little bit better than 99 and also a lot of pocket pairs and draws, so against this whole continuation ranging we are sending fire.
Thanks for your attention.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Casey55]

don't you think the bet sizing I chose had something to do with keeping him in with 99? I'm afraid if we choose larger sizing these typs of hands will fold, but on the other edge of the sword we want to extract more value from his other holdings that are better, like others have said his Ax and draws which we would miss out on value if we use these smaller bets I speculate, interesting another note looking back is that BB had broken stack maybe that is why I bet smaller than typical, trying to get value from a short stack

 

[Aballinamion]

don't you think the bet sizing I chose had something to do with keeping him in with 99? I'm afraid if we choose larger sizing these typs of hands will fold, but on the other edge of the sword we want to extract more value from his other holdings that are better, like others have said his Ax and draws which we would miss out on value if we use these smaller bets I speculate, interesting another note looking back is that BB had broken stack maybe that is why I bet smaller than typical, trying to get value from a short stack

Sorry, but I cannot speculate what was coming thought your mind. But betting small versus a short stack will make you win less, the intention of betting stronger is to get all-in OTR.
Now, if you were betting thinking about just one group of hands, than you are making a small mistake, because players will never have only Ax, or Tx, or 99, they will have them all on their ranges and we must seek for the best strategy to extract value from all of them.
I believe you played the hand fine and betting small OTT was not a mistake, given that the Villain is unknown and we might never see it again at the tables.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Casey55]

in BB's flop calling range he can have Ax a decent chunk of the time actually so maybe targeting his weaker aces with a larger bet is optimal way here? also getting called by his draws (2nd pic AK is error, villain should 3-bet those usually pre)

 

[Casey55]

Sorry, but I cannot speculate what was coming thought your mind. But betting small versus a short stack will make you win less, the intention of betting stronger is to get all-in OTR.
Now, if you were betting thinking about just one group of hands, than you are making a small mistake, because players will never have only Ax, or Tx, or 99, they will have them all on their ranges and we must seek for the best strategy to extract value from all of them.
I believe you played the hand fine and betting small OTT was not a mistake, given that the Villain is unknown and we might never see it again at the tables.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

I thought betting bigger versus a small stack creates more fold equity?

 

[Aballinamion]

I thought betting bigger versus a small stack creates more fold equity?

Sorry, but we cannot say that for sure, it is too much speculation. Try not to overthink too much versus recreational players, save your energies for regulars.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[quant1986]

Sorry, but we cannot say that for sure, it is too much speculation. Try not to overthink too much versus recreational players, save your energies for regulars.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Yes I think for NL2 you just need to assume everyone is a calling station unless proven otherwise