$2 NLHE Full Ring: Struggling with a decision such as this....

[johnoman]

PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 71 BB
Hero (BTN): 104 BB
SB: 98 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 35 BB
UTG+1: 19.5 BB
MP: 100 BB
MP+1: 42 BB
MP+2: 143 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:spade: A:spade:

UTG calls 1 BB, UTG+1 calls 1 BB, MP raises to 6 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 12 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP calls 6 BB

Flop: (27.5 BB, 2 players) 6:diamond: J:heart: Q:heart:
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: (27.5 BB, 2 players) K:club:
MP bets 18 BB, Hero calls 18 BB

River: (63.5 BB, 2 players) 4:heart:
MP bets 70 BB and is all-in, fold

MP wins 61.5 BB

 

[johnsulliv]

PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 71 BB
Hero (BTN): 104 BB
SB: 98 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 35 BB
UTG+1: 19.5 BB
MP: 100 BB
MP+1: 42 BB
MP+2: 143 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q♠ A♠

UTG calls 1 BB, UTG+1 calls 1 BB, MP raises to 6 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 12 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP calls 6 BB

Flop: (27.5 BB, 2 players) 6♦ J♥ Q♥
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: (27.5 BB, 2 players) K♣
MP bets 18 BB, Hero calls 18 BB

River: (63.5 BB, 2 players) 4♥
MP bets 70 BB and is all-in, fold

MP wins 61.5 BB

Assuming they had the K?

Call next time, MP raised either to isolate one or both of the limpers, calling gives them a better chance to call.
Giving you a better price if you do make your flush or two pair possibly FH.
Otherwise you want to keep the pot small anyway.
You had no outs to hit your flush.
That’s a big part of AQs potential in a situation like this, I feel.

 

[Julez97]

First of all, I think your 3-bet was far too small, especially with a couple of limpers. You are giving players too good of a price to continue. Against fishy players, you really want to raise large for value.

I am not sure why you are checking this flop. This is a standard spot to c-bet. This board connects with your range very well. Its also got plenty of draws that you want to charge or deny equity to.

After you checked, I expect MP to consider betting the turn quite frequently. The K is a pretty bad card for you as villain can have some Kx combos in their range like KJs, KQ, KTs, K9s that now make top pair. They may have also turned a straight with T9s or ATs, or they could be leading here with a strong draw after you gave up the initiative in the hand.

Its now an uncomfortable spot to be in. AQ is still quite strong, and you do not block many of their bluffs. So its hard to fold outright. But you also need to consider the SPR going into the river. Its gong to be about 1:1, so if you do call, villain will jam the river quite frequently with bluffs and value hands. So if you think they may be bluffing the turn, consider jamming to deny equity or to get it in ahead. I could also get behind folding if they are a tighter player.

The river is pretty awful for you. With the flush coming in, you now lose to many more hands. I don't think you are good here 30% of the time, so its a good fold.

Focus on your overall line though. I think you made several mistakes in this hand.

 

[Dkerridge14]

PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 71 BB
Hero (BTN): 104 BB
SB: 98 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 35 BB
UTG+1: 19.5 BB
MP: 100 BB
MP+1: 42 BB
MP+2: 143 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q:spade: A:spade:

UTG calls 1 BB, UTG+1 calls 1 BB, MP raises to 6 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 12 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP calls 6 BB

Flop: (27.5 BB, 2 players) 6:diamond: J:heart: Q:heart:
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: (27.5 BB, 2 players) K:club:
MP bets 18 BB, Hero calls 18 BB

River: (63.5 BB, 2 players) 4:heart:
MP bets 70 BB and is all-in, fold

MP wins 61.5 BB

Personally, I would of raised preflop here to about 18bb for the probable isolation against mp which does end up being the case.
Anyhow, going on toward the flop you want to be c-betting her almost 100% of the time I’d say probably around 65-75% pot. Reason being the board is quite wet and you don’t want to allow MP to actualise equity, specially when you have a good hand. Not only that, you have allowed villain to take the betting lead so if any draw hit or overcard as seen then you are more than likely going to have to face bluff barrels. I think because you have shown that weakness on the flop you have to call in the end as the opponent is going to fire as a bluff when you are being very passive. This is because villain is going to put you on many many draws and is going to assume 60-70% of the time you have missed your draws and assumes your going to fold. So your hand here is definitely good enough to call off with. Yes you may into Kx or some T9 but that’s the price you pay for not cbetting this flop

 

[johnoman]

First of all, I think your 3-bet was far too small, especially with a couple of limpers. You are giving players too good of a price to continue. Against fishy players, you really want to raise large for value.

I am not sure why you are checking this flop. This is a standard spot to c-bet. This board connects with your range very well. Its also got plenty of draws that you want to charge or deny equity to.

After you checked, I expect MP to consider betting the turn quite frequently. The K is a pretty bad card for you as villain can have some Kx combos in their range like KJs, KQ, KTs, K9s that now make top pair. They may have also turned a straight with T9s or ATs, or they could be leading here with a strong draw after you gave up the initiative in the hand.

Its now an uncomfortable spot to be in. AQ is still quite strong, and you do not block many of their bluffs. So its hard to fold outright. But you also need to consider the SPR going into the river. Its gong to be about 1:1, so if you do call, villain will jam the river quite frequently with bluffs and value hands. So if you think they may be bluffing the turn, consider jamming to deny equity or to get it in ahead. I could also get behind folding if they are a tighter player.

The river is pretty awful for you. With the flush coming in, you now lose to many more hands. I don't think you are good here 30% of the time, so its a good fold.

Focus on your overall line though. I think you made several mistakes in this hand.

I thought I had made a few mistakes too - I just wasn't sure what they were.

Thanks for the reply and advice!

 

[johnoman]

Personally, I would of raised preflop here to about 18bb for the probable isolation against mp which does end up being the case.
Anyhow, going on toward the flop you want to be c-betting her almost 100% of the time I’d say probably around 65-75% pot. Reason being the board is quite wet and you don’t want to allow MP to actualise equity, specially when you have a good hand. Not only that, you have allowed villain to take the betting lead so if any draw hit or overcard as seen then you are more than likely going to have to face bluff barrels. I think because you have shown that weakness on the flop you have to call in the end as the opponent is going to fire as a bluff when you are being very passive. This is because villain is going to put you on many many draws and is going to assume 60-70% of the time you have missed your draws and assumes your going to fold. So your hand here is definitely good enough to call off with. Yes you may into Kx or some T9 but that’s the price you pay for not cbetting this flop

Thanks man!

Definitely think postflop and choosing the right line is my downfall at the moment.

 

[jaworek1405]

Hello, I agree with guys that raise pre flop from the hero is a little to small. I prefer raise at least 3x + 2big blinds for two limpers. Besides I think that check on the flop with top pair and top kicker is a any mistake. We don't want to give the opponent free card. I don't predict in opponent's range too many suited connector cards that will isolation from MP position. I see more hands with two cards off suit, so I usually don't afraid the flush draw on the flop. On the turn came up bad card for hero and now we have a little harder decision, because some kx cards are in opponent's range. On the river I fold this hand, because of more possible kx on opponent than flush.
I hope that this helped you, GL

 

[Aballinamion]

PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 71 BB
Hero (BTN): 104 BB
SB: 98 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 35 BB
UTG+1: 19.5 BB
MP: 100 BB
MP+1: 42 BB
MP+2: 143 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Q♠ A♠

UTG calls 1 BB, UTG+1 calls 1 BB, MP raises to 6 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 12 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, MP calls 6 BB

Flop: (27.5 BB, 2 players) 6♦ J♥ Q♥
MP checks, Hero checks

Turn: (27.5 BB, 2 players) K♣
MP bets 18 BB, Hero calls 18 BB

River: (63.5 BB, 2 players) 4♥
MP bets 70 BB and is all-in, fold

MP wins 61.5 BB

I think preflop it is okay, we have pretty decent equity plus position for a 3-bet and the price doesn't need to very high, since MP/Villain raised limpers for 6x (usually we 3-bet 9 blinds versus 3 blinds opening).

The postflop

The Flop

I would rather c-bet the flop with hands that 3-bet EP/MP in a very high frequency. We have a lot of reasons not to check this flop, because if comes another Ace, although we form Top Two Pair, it also complete 1 liner straight.
When we do check our hands here, such as Qx, Jx, FDs, SDs, and some group of pocket pairs, we are giving easy odds and ways for our opponents to bluff us and take us out of the pot.
When we do check OTF we demonstrate weakness, so I would be more inclined of checking flops where I do own AhKh or AhTh, AhXh, perhaps if I own AhAx as well, because we are blocking both SD and FD, but with TPTK, TP2K, Two Pair and Sets we are c-betting this flop for 1/2 pot almost always.

The Turn

It completes one straight, but we are blocking part of that and MP comes betting. Raising here is not good because we have reverse implied odds a lot because of the hearts combos combinatorics, but we must call because we are drawing for the straight, trips and top two pair.

The River

It completes a lot of possible bluffs on MP's range and we don't believe that if we do call now we are ahead.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[johnoman]

I think preflop it is okay, we have pretty decent equity plus position for a 3-bet and the price doesn't need to very high, since MP/Villain raised limpers for 6x (usually we 3-bet 9 blinds versus 3 blinds opening).

The postflop

The Flop

I would rather c-bet the flop with hands that 3-bet EP/MP in a very high frequency. We have a lot of reasons not to check this flop, because if comes another Ace, although we form Top Two Pair, it also complete 1 liner straight.
When we do check our hands here, such as Qx, Jx, FDs, SDs, and some group of pocket pairs, we are giving easy odds and ways for our opponents to bluff us and take us out of the pot.
When we do check OTF we demonstrate weakness, so I would be more inclined of checking flops where I do own AhKh or AhTh, AhXh, perhaps if I own AhAx as well, because we are blocking both SD and FD, but with TPTK, TP2K, Two Pair and Sets we are c-betting this flop for 1/2 pot almost always.

The Turn

It completes one straight, but we are blocking part of that and MP comes betting. Raising here is not good because we have reverse implied odds a lot because of the hearts combos combinatorics, but we must call because we are drawing for the straight, trips and top two pair.

The River

It completes a lot of possible bluffs on MP's range and we don't believe that if we do call now we are ahead.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Great answer....

Is it a general rule of thumb that we should always bet the flop when we have TPTK, TP2K, Two Pair and Sets?

 

[Aballinamion]

Great answer....

Is it a general rule of thumb that we should always bet the flop when we have TPTK, TP2K, Two Pair and Sets?

No, it is not a rule of thumb that we should always bet the flop when holding TPTK or best;
Nonetheless, there are different types of flops and for example, we are more inclined to check our TPTK or best when it is a dry texture for example we open AQ and the flop comes AQQ, QQQ, AAA, AAX, QQX, etc these are very dry textures where we are holding almost everything possible, so if we do c-bet too much in scenarios like this we are going to get a lot of folds.

What do we do? We mix our frequency of c-betting the flop, even very dry flops, we can be c-betting for value, for example we open AQ and the flop comes QXQ, and we c-bet 1/3 pot, because we do it with a lot of hands and given the small sizings, many opponents are going 'to level' more and call more often the c-bet flop and raise even more, because it is much more easy to raise OTF when someone bets only 1/3 pot, then for when someone bets 1/2 pot or more.

On the contrary, when we have equity and the flop comes very connected we should be c-betting more than checking, as a rule fo thumb, because our real value hands need protection, we can get value from worst hands, etc.
But no problem in checking OTF TPTK or better, it depends very much on your gameplan, overall strategy and who you are facing at the moment.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[johnoman]

Makes sense and a lot of help there!