$2 NLHE Full Ring: straight crushed on the river

J

johnsulliv

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Yatahay Network - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 100.5 BB
UTG+1: 99.5 BB
Hero (MP): 54 BB
MP+1: 110 BB
MP+2: 60 BB
CO: 45.5 BB
BTN: 16 BB
SB: 57 BB
BB: 100 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7:heart: 7:spade:

fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop: (7 BB, 2 players) 8:spade: 9:diamond: 6:club:
SB bets 7 BB, Hero calls 7 BB

Turn: (21 BB, 2 players) 5:spade:
SB bets 21 BB, Hero raises to 43.5 BB, SB raises to 47 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 0.5 BB and is all-in

River: (109 BB, 2 players) 9:heart:

Hero shows 7:heart: 7:spade: (Straight, Nine High)
(Pre 54%, Flop 35%, Turn 89%)
SB shows 9:spade: 8:club: (Full House, Nines full of Eights)
(Pre 46%, Flop 65%, Turn 11%)
SB wins 104 BB




I think a better play would have been to call the turn bet and somehow make a painful fold on the river???
 
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Calling flop pot bet not good. You both shortstaked you have no chances to call with straight draw.
As played turn push.
 
Dkerridge14

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Yatahay Network - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 100.5 BB
UTG+1: 99.5 BB
Hero (MP): 54 BB
MP+1: 110 BB
MP+2: 60 BB
CO: 45.5 BB
BTN: 16 BB
SB: 57 BB
BB: 100 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7 7

fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop: (7 BB, 2 players) 8 9 6
SB bets 7 BB, Hero calls 7 BB

Turn: (21 BB, 2 players) 5
SB bets 21 BB, Hero raises to 43.5 BB, SB raises to 47 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 0.5 BB and is all-in

River: (109 BB, 2 players) 9

Hero shows 7 7 (Straight, Nine High)
(Pre 54%, Flop 35%, Turn 89%)
SB shows 9 8 (Full House, Nines full of Eights)
(Pre 46%, Flop 65%, Turn 11%)
SB wins 104 BB




I think a better play would have been to call the turn bet and somehow make a painful fold on the river???

I think this is a fold on the flop to a pot sized bet, odds are terrible for the draw to the straight and your opponent is repping quite a lot of strength when he leads out.
Now on the turn when you do hit that straight, you do the right thing and get it in. At this point he has terrible equity.
The river just is what it is. Bad luck, he had few outs and got there but again should of let go on the flop
 
S

Sidetracked

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Any time you get all your money/chips in with the best hand is great. Yes he hit his 4 outer, but it doesn't mean you played the hand incorrectly.
 
J

johnsulliv

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I think this is a fold on the flop to a pot sized bet, odds are terrible for the draw to the straight and your opponent is repping quite a lot of strength when he leads out.
Now on the turn when you do hit that straight, you do the right thing and get it in. At this point he has terrible equity.
The river just is what it is. Bad luck, he had few outs and got there but again should of let go on the flop

Any time you get all your money/chips in with the best hand is great. Yes he hit his 4 outer, but it doesn't mean you played the hand incorrectly.

Calling flop pot bet not good. You both shortstaked you have no chances to call with straight draw.
As played turn push.

Thank you for all input.

I called the flop, as it was a pot sized bet.
I think you need at least 33% equity to continue.

I ran 77 vs 53% of hands (the range I had him on....roughly)
And had 68.28% against 31.72 on the flop.

He bets another pot on the turn and this time I have 91.67% against that range, and still the odds to call, and shove.

I think I can call two bets, shoving was a little spazzy.

77 - 35.05% vs 98o - 64.95% flop

77 - 88.64% vs 98o - 11.36% turn

I get why you all hate the call on the flop.

Do I have it all wrong? Are there not the odds to call a pot sized DONK bet with middle pair and a gutshot?
 
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Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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Yatahay Network - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 100.5 BB
UTG+1: 99.5 BB
Hero (MP): 54 BB
MP+1: 110 BB
MP+2: 60 BB
CO: 45.5 BB
BTN: 16 BB
SB: 57 BB
BB: 100 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7 7

fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop: (7 BB, 2 players) 8 9 6
SB bets 7 BB, Hero calls 7 BB

Turn: (21 BB, 2 players) 5
SB bets 21 BB, Hero raises to 43.5 BB, SB raises to 47 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 0.5 BB and is all-in

River: (109 BB, 2 players) 9

Hero shows 7 7 (Straight, Nine High)
(Pre 54%, Flop 35%, Turn 89%)
SB shows 9 8 (Full House, Nines full of Eights)
(Pre 46%, Flop 65%, Turn 11%)
SB wins 104 BB

I think a better play would have been to call the turn bet and somehow make a painful fold on the river???


I don't play full-ring anymore, but I would say that it could be okay if we do open raise 22-77 from MP 50% of times and fold 22-77 50% of times, because there are many players yet to speak and we are not going to realize our equity postflop so often, when we do get 3-bet/Squeeze sometimes.
When SB calls you, it has a more capped range, hands that are not so good for 3-betting vs EP/MP but also not so bad to be folding. So, we don't expect many JJ+ and AJs+ for example, on SB's range, but a bunch of 22-TT or 22-99, and broadways plus suited connectors.

The postflop

The Flop

When SB leads/donks flop, it is trying to represent mostly hands like 86, 98, 96 (?) and maybe some back doors flushes, such as JTs, QJs, T7s (uncommon), and of course, the group of sets, with 99, 88 and 66.
When SB hits such strong hands oop it wants to extract as soon as possible from some part of EP/MP's preflop ranges, which will contain a ton of TT+.
MP/Hero won't present many 66 on its range, but more hands like suited broadways, and 77+, so this flop is a little bit best for the SB than the MP.

When SB donks flop we cannot raise yet, although we have sweet equity with OESD and our hand it is very hidden from SB's perception. Plus, if we do raise here, we are not ever protecting AT, AJ, AQ and AK, and TT, JJ, QQ, KK and AA, so our call here will protect the vast majority of our range OTF.

Realize that SB used polarization OTF, and it is hard to find bluffs on Villain's ranges, when they bet so badly and strong: they only bet so strong for value, keep that in mind. It becomes impossible to bluff using such huge sizings, unless the opponent is tilted or a drunk whale, this is not happening at cash tables, not at 2 NLHE not at any stake.

On the turn, it opens a flush draw of spades and SB/Vilain insists betting 100% again, and now we have a lot of hands that should not be calling again SB's bet OTT, such as AsKs, AsQs, etc, JsTs, QsJs, etc, in a higher frequency sets with 99 and 88 and in a lower frequency sets with 66 and 55, plus, of course 77, because we don't open many A7s or even K7s from MP.

It is very sweet when SB comes betting the pot again, because we have the nuts here almost 99% of times, and it is very hidden from Villain's perception/perceived range. Villain expects us to have more hands like QQ, KK and AA that should not be raising OTT, but calling to evaluate river, so if we do raise here with our sets and BDFs+SDs, nothing more fair than raising with the nuts itself (since we are blocking this straight combination on SB's ranks), turning for the SB impossible to fold its Two Pair and Sets and by the same time, punishing SB for overplaying its range (SB only donks flop 100% pot and c-bets turn 100% pot with two pair and sets, nothing more). ;)
You did the most profitable move OTT, putting all of the chips having monster equity, thus an automatic profitable move. :D
What happen on the river it is not our problem and it doesn't matter. We should never be concerned about results, we only care for doing the most profitable move for the situation. Good luck always! :)

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
Dkerridge14

Dkerridge14

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Yatahay Network - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 100.5 BB
UTG+1: 99.5 BB
Hero (MP): 54 BB
MP+1: 110 BB
MP+2: 60 BB
CO: 45.5 BB
BTN: 16 BB
SB: 57 BB
BB: 100 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 7 7

fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, SB calls 2.5 BB, fold

Flop: (7 BB, 2 players) 8 9 6
SB bets 7 BB, Hero calls 7 BB

Turn: (21 BB, 2 players) 5
SB bets 21 BB, Hero raises to 43.5 BB, SB raises to 47 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 0.5 BB and is all-in

River: (109 BB, 2 players) 9

Hero shows 7 7 (Straight, Nine High)
(Pre 54%, Flop 35%, Turn 89%)
SB shows 9 8 (Full House, Nines full of Eights)
(Pre 46%, Flop 65%, Turn 11%)
SB wins 104 BB




I think a better play would have been to call the turn bet and somehow make a painful fold on the river???

Think about the flop. Look at your stack. You are running into a lot of 2 pairs, few sets, few overpairs, for aggressive you could add a couple straights so your not actually in massive good shape.

When you do hit the turn though, not enough of a stack to do much with so they call almost always at that point
 
J

johnsulliv

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I don't play full-ring anymore, but I would say that it could be okay if we do open raise 22-77 from MP 50% of times and fold 22-77 50% of times, because there are many players yet to speak and we are not going to realize our equity postflop so often, when we do get 3-bet/Squeeze sometimes.
When SB calls you, it has a more capped range, hands that are not so good for 3-betting vs EP/MP but also not so bad to be folding. So, we don't expect many JJ+ and AJs+ for example, on SB's range, but a bunch of 22-TT or 22-99, and broadways plus suited connectors.

The postflop

The Flop

When SB leads/donks flop, it is trying to represent mostly hands like 86, 98, 96 (?) and maybe some back doors flushes, such as JTs, QJs, T7s (uncommon), and of course, the group of sets, with 99, 88 and 66.
When SB hits such strong hands oop it wants to extract as soon as possible from some part of EP/MP's preflop ranges, which will contain a ton of TT+.
MP/Hero won't present many 66 on its range, but more hands like suited broadways, and 77+, so this flop is a little bit best for the SB than the MP.

When SB donks flop we cannot raise yet, although we have sweet equity with OESD and our hand it is very hidden from SB's perception. Plus, if we do raise here, we are not ever protecting AT, AJ, AQ and AK, and TT, JJ, QQ, KK and AA, so our call here will protect the vast majority of our range OTF.

Realize that SB used polarization OTF, and it is hard to find bluffs on Villain's ranges, when they bet so badly and strong: they only bet so strong for value, keep that in mind. It becomes impossible to bluff using such huge sizings, unless the opponent is tilted or a drunk whale, this is not happening at cash tables, not at 2 NLHE not at any stake.

On the turn, it opens a flush draw of spades and SB/Vilain insists betting 100% again, and now we have a lot of hands that should not be calling again SB's bet OTT, such as AsKs, AsQs, etc, JsTs, QsJs, etc, in a higher frequency sets with 99 and 88 and in a lower frequency sets with 66 and 55, plus, of course 77, because we don't open many A7s or even K7s from MP.

It is very sweet when SB comes betting the pot again, because we have the nuts here almost 99% of times, and it is very hidden from Villain's perception/perceived range. Villain expects us to have more hands like QQ, KK and AA that should not be raising OTT, but calling to evaluate river, so if we do raise here with our sets and BDFs+SDs, nothing more fair than raising with the nuts itself (since we are blocking this straight combination on SB's ranks), turning for the SB impossible to fold its Two Pair and Sets and by the same time, punishing SB for overplaying its range (SB only donks flop 100% pot and c-bets turn 100% pot with two pair and sets, nothing more). ;)
You did the most profitable move OTT, putting all of the chips having monster equity, thus an automatic profitable move. :D
What happen on the river it is not our problem and it doesn't matter. We should never be concerned about results, we only care for doing the most profitable move for the situation. Good luck always! :)

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa


Thank you very much for your time.

If we are folding 77 and lower 50% of the time, what would be one of the reasons to do so?

It’s interesting your talking about protecting other hands within our apparent range by calling and something I’ll give some a little more thought to going forward.

Thank you again.

:)
 
Aballinamion

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Thank you very much for your time.

If we are folding 77 and lower 50% of the time, what would be one of the reasons to do so?

It’s interesting your talking about protecting other hands within our apparent range by calling and something I’ll give some a little more thought to going forward.

Thank you again.

:)

One of the reasons for folding hands as 22-77 from EP/MP is because we are not going to realize our equity so often, having 7, 6 players yet to speak for a Full-Ring table.
Many times we are just playing these small pocket pairs to setmine and from EP/MP it becomes harder.
There are other reasons, for example, players at the micros tend to overcall and play 22-77 out of position sucks most of times.
The final and most important reason of all is that we don't do anything at poker a 100% of times: we must mix our plays and adapt to the specific circumstances.
We should be opening and 3-betting/4-betting/Jaming KK+ and AKs almost 100% of times in some scenarios, but there will be scenarios where we are going to flat hands like these to protect our range versus some specific kind of Villain.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
J

johnsulliv

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One of the reasons for folding hands as 22-77 from EP/MP is because we are not going to realize our equity so often, having 7, 6 players yet to speak for a Full-Ring table.
Many times we are just playing these small pocket pairs to setmine and from EP/MP it becomes harder.
There are other reasons, for example, players at the micros tend to overcall and play 22-77 out of position sucks most of times.
The final and most important reason of all is that we don't do anything at poker a 100% of times: we must mix our plays and adapt to the specific circumstances.
We should be opening and 3-betting/4-betting/Jaming KK+ and AKs almost 100% of times in some scenarios, but there will be scenarios where we are going to flat hands like these to protect our range versus some specific kind of Villain.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Thank you.
 
teh_colonel_saigon

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I wanted to jump in because this is a very interesting spot. There are many point to learn from here.

Preflop:
I also play 6-max insted of full-ring. 77 is a decent hand but it is very inflexible, especially out of position. It is a 6-max UTG open, but you are one seat shy of that. Just think about the players at your table, how often they call you/3-bet you and how profitable you can make this open in the long run. It's your call!

-SB flat calls. We should already be putting him on a middling and speculative range.

Flop: SB donk leads for pot. Donk bets are typically polarized imo... either with top pair + or with a draw. This fits into what we've assigned SB preflop, so assuming SB is tight-ish this is the range I've assigned him:

SB's value donks: A9s, K9s, 9Ts, 88, 66, 57s, 89s... a more speculative hand (that still beats us) will be added here which is 87s.

Value combos: 23

SB's 'bluffy' donks: JTs, 67s, 56s, A5s, A7s

Bluff combos: 16c

This may be stretching a bit, so adjust based on player reads. But even in this scenario, V is tilted towards value over bluffs.

So should we call?As you mentioned, we only have to be good 33% of the time. we currently beat 41% of his combos and have outs to beat the rest.

This is where we talk about stack sizes! If V is an aggro fish, we certainly have implied odds to call. However, both of you are short-stacked, so your investment is capped on its returns.

I would say this: if effective stacks were bigger, its a slam-dunk call.

As is, I think it is just a marginal call. Let's look at this assuming you would fold to his turn barrel if a 5 or a T doesn't come.

.16 x 58bb (you stack him if you hit) - .84 x 7bb (your flop investment)

= +3.4bb

So assuming you can stack him (and he doesn't suck out) this is what you can expect to win.

So it really depends on V's tendencies- is he going to barrel pot-sized bets with a draw? Is he going to fold to a turn shove? Or once he's called on the flop, will he slow down on the turn? These are the nuanced parts that can affect the EV of this call.

Overall, WP
 
J

johnsulliv

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I wanted to jump in because this is a very interesting spot. There are many point to learn from here.

Preflop:
I also play 6-max insted of full-ring. 77 is a decent hand but it is very inflexible, especially out of position. It is a 6-max UTG open, but you are one seat shy of that. Just think about the players at your table, how often they call you/3-bet you and how profitable you can make this open in the long run. It's your call!

-SB flat calls. We should already be putting him on a middling and speculative range.

Flop: SB donk leads for pot. Donk bets are typically polarized imo... either with top pair + or with a draw. This fits into what we've assigned SB preflop, so assuming SB is tight-ish this is the range I've assigned him:

SB's value donks: A9s, K9s, 9Ts, 88, 66, 57s, 89s... a more speculative hand (that still beats us) will be added here which is 87s.

Value combos: 23

SB's 'bluffy' donks: JTs, 67s, 56s, A5s, A7s

Bluff combos: 16c

This may be stretching a bit, so adjust based on player reads. But even in this scenario, V is tilted towards value over bluffs.

So should we call?As you mentioned, we only have to be good 33% of the time. we currently beat 41% of his combos and have outs to beat the rest.

This is where we talk about stack sizes! If V is an aggro fish, we certainly have implied odds to call. However, both of you are short-stacked, so your investment is capped on its returns.

I would say this: if effective stacks were bigger, its a slam-dunk call.

As is, I think it is just a marginal call. Let's look at this assuming you would fold to his turn barrel if a 5 or a T doesn't come.

.16 x 58bb (you stack him if you hit) - .84 x 7bb (your flop investment)

= +3.4bb

So assuming you can stack him (and he doesn't suck out) this is what you can expect to win.

So it really depends on V's tendencies- is he going to barrel pot-sized bets with a draw? Is he going to fold to a turn shove? Or once he's called on the flop, will he slow down on the turn? These are the nuanced parts that can affect the EV of this call.

Overall, WP


Thank you very much for your input, its much appreciated.
you raise some excellent points, and perceptions.

I can see (now) how you mean with the stack sizes, and its significance to assessing the play.

I have some more studying to do i think.:)
 
jaworek1405

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Hello, I think that hero played this hand good and it was unlucky on the river. The flop is very good for pocket 77 and I think that we can call the flop for pot size bet, we have at least 8 outs to win this hand and sometimes additional two outs to hit the set. If the turn doesn't help us and opponent plays again pot size bet IMO we should fold this draw, because we have too smałle equity to complete the best hand. When I see very big bet from the opponent in this situation like this, it seems that he has something strong and on the turn probably I play like hero with a straight. Besides I don't see any escape in this situation with the straight on the turn or on the river, because we have to strong hand-straight. I probably don't fold straight even on the river will paired board or because of possible the flush. GL :)
 
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