$2 NLHE Full Ring: Should I be checking this flop with bottom set?

T

tzuriel

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First of all thank you for the time and energy you all contribute here. You have really helped me get better!
Villain limps like EVERY hand that he VPIPs. (VPIP: 28 over 107 hands with 0 PFR. Not a huge sample but he limps an awful lot) He does that here as well and then calls my 3.5x raise from the SB with 33

No Limit Hold'em $0.01/$0.02
Winning Poker Network
9 players
Formatted by pokercopilot.com: Poker HUD for Mac and Windows

Stacks:
UTG - UTG (
$4.95)
UTG+1 - UTG+1 (
$1.68)
UTG+2 - UTG+2 (
$4.40)
MP - MP (
$2.50)
MP2 - MP2 (
$2.00)
CO - CO (
$2.05)
BTN - BTN (
$1.66)
SB - Hero (
$2.99)
BB - BB (
$6.94)

Preflop: (
$0.03, 9 players) Hero is SB with 3♣ 3♦2 folds, UTG+2 calls $0.02, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.07, 1 fold, UTG+2 calls $0.05

Flop:
J♠ 3♠ Q♦ ($0.16, 2 players - Hero: $2.92, UTG+2: $4.33)Hero bets $0.02, 1 fold, Uncalled bet of $0.02 returned to Hero

Total Pot:
$0.16

Hero wins $0.16


If he's drawing to a flush I want him to pay something but if he's got like A high, I don't want him to fold. He folds to my min raise on the flop! He must have just had nothing but why call my PF raise? It's pretty hard to flop a set and I got like zero value. So check the flop?

:confused:
 
S

Sidetracked

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With a flush draw and numerous straight draws on the flop, I think a cbet is best.

I would size up to between 40 and 60% of pot.

Just because villain folded to your cbet doesn't mean it was a mistake.
 
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300HPGOD

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My pre flop decision on this hand would come down to what I know about the BB and also what I know about the villain who already limped. First, if the BB is not an aggressive player and I think they will check behind a lot I prefer just calling here and trying to see the flop cheaply. Same rationale vs the main villain that if I never think they are folding to a pre flop raise in this spot I would rather just see the flop. Otherwise we get ourselves into a spot where we are out of position and have a hand that is hard to play post, especially when out of position. Its also a hand I dont mind playing against 1 opponent or 2 since I am very card dependent and need a set (outside of one c bet bluff) so playing against 2 players will usually add value when a set is flopped.

On the flop you get your set which is what you will really need most of the time with this hand unless you get villain to fold to your c bet when you dont hit. I think your bet sizing is the worst thing you can do. Players react differently to min bets so you add a variable there and also your bet charges no draws since it is a min bet. I much prefer betting something more "normal" there and going with 50-66% of pot bet. Qx will call, Jx might call, draws will call (that includes straight and flush) so there is no reason not to bet here with the intention of getting value from worse hands. Betting as you did allows those draws to see the turn for next to nothing and there are plenty of turn cards we dont like. Betting small like this also hinders the bet sizings of future streets so even if you got a call here you are deteriorating your value not only on the flop but on the turn and river as well.
 
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tzuriel

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My pre flop decision on this hand would come down to what I know about the BB and also what I know about the villain who already limped. First, if the BB is not an aggressive player and I think they will check behind a lot I prefer just calling here and trying to see the flop cheaply. Same rationale vs the main villain that if I never think they are folding to a pre flop raise in this spot I would rather just see the flop. Otherwise we get ourselves into a spot where we are out of position and have a hand that is hard to play post, especially when out of position. Its also a hand I dont mind playing against 1 opponent or 2 since I am very card dependent and need a set (outside of one c bet bluff) so playing against 2 players will usually add value when a set is flopped.

On the flop you get your set which is what you will really need most of the time with this hand unless you get villain to fold to your c bet when you dont hit. I think your bet sizing is the worst thing you can do. Players react differently to min bets so you add a variable there and also your bet charges no draws since it is a min bet. I much prefer betting something more "normal" there and going with 50-66% of pot bet. Qx will call, Jx might call, draws will call (that includes straight and flush) so there is no reason not to bet here with the intention of getting value from worse hands. Betting as you did allows those draws to see the turn for next to nothing and there are plenty of turn cards we dont like. Betting small like this also hinders the bet sizings of future streets so even if you got a call here you are deteriorating your value not only on the flop but on the turn and river as well.


This is all very good advice. Thanks for taking the time to respond!
 
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gustav197poker

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The goal of 3-betting with low pockets is to get a lot of folds. If villain UTG+2 tends to call 3-bets a lot, our raise won't be very effective by definition. On the other hand we have BB, from whom we should expect a lot fold equity. If you are unsure about this villain, you can get down to limper level and fill in your blind to see an MWB flop. If you think BB is a player who will always attack in these places, you should never limp here.
If we 3-bet from SB, the first thing we want is to compensate for our positional disadvantage and then we seek to send the opponents off. We can achieve this with a larger size. We should go about 6x, since they are a bit deep.
Also if we think that UTG+2 does not fold, we seek to obtain the value of many speculative hands preflop.
The V range is not only pockets, but also a lot of low, mid and high suit connectors, and a few more random hands.
Therefore on the flop we must keep bombarding with a continuation bet. At least we should do half pot, to get the value of draws and dominated hands.
Greetings.
 
Alex_Ogienko

Alex_Ogienko

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1. In such a situation and with such opponents, it is better to call a small pair in the hope of catching your set. 2. Checking or betting one big blind with a set here is a mistake. With a set, we need to overclock the pot to have value. A 2/3 pot bet would be ideal here. Moreover, the board is coordinated. In such cases, you don't need to worry about your opponent folding.
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
If you are going to isolate a limper preflop, you need to go larger than 3,5X especially out of position. When you give him such a good price and position, he is never going to fold anything. However with this particular hand I would prefer to just complete and try to see an almost free flop. Setmining can be really profitable at 2NL, because players will tend to make massive mistakes postflop, and having BB in the hand as well gives you another source of implied odds.

Flop
This is a really perfect flop, and having bottom set is better than having top or middle set, because then you unblock top pair and second pair. You can go for a check-raise here to get more money in the pot, but when he is this passive preflop, he is probably also very passive postflop. So I prefer to take the safe option and simply continue betting. However I dont like your sizing. You bet 2c into a pot of 16c, and this is just silly. He is never folding a Q, J or draw on the flop, so bet something like 10-12c. Going to small limit the size of the bets, you can get in on the turn and river, so it multiplies throughout the hand.

Results
Him folding to a 2c bet is fairly crazy, but maybe he misclicked, or he made a bad decision and pre selected "check/fold". In either case he would obviously not have called a larger bet either. But this does not matter. Your goal is not to get paid by every single hand in his range. Your goal is to maximize your total return, and you do that by building a bit pot, when he is strong enough to continue.

Your hand also benefits from some protection. You dont want the flop to go check-check or only put in a silly 2c, and then the turn comes a T, and now you end up paying off his K9 or 98, that just made a straight. You want to at least charge him to draw to those 4 outs, so that he is not totally owning you, when he hits them.
 
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tzuriel

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Preflop
If you are going to isolate a limper preflop, you need to go larger than 3,5X especially out of position. When you give him such a good price and position, he is never going to fold anything. However with this particular hand I would prefer to just complete and try to see an almost free flop. Setmining can be really profitable at 2NL, because players will tend to make massive mistakes postflop, and having BB in the hand as well gives you another source of implied odds.

Flop
This is a really perfect flop, and having bottom set is better than having top or middle set, because then you unblock top pair and second pair. You can go for a check-raise here to get more money in the pot, but when he is this passive preflop, he is probably also very passive postflop. So I prefer to take the safe option and simply continue betting. However I dont like your sizing. You bet 2c into a pot of 16c, and this is just silly. He is never folding a Q, J or draw on the flop, so bet something like 10-12c. Going to small limit the size of the bets, you can get in on the turn and river, so it multiplies throughout the hand.

Results
Him folding to a 2c bet is fairly crazy, but maybe he misclicked, or he made a bad decision and pre selected "check/fold". In either case he would obviously not have called a larger bet either. But this does not matter. Your goal is not to get paid by every single hand in his range. Your goal is to maximize your total return, and you do that by building a bit pot, when he is strong enough to continue.

Your hand also benefits from some protection. You dont want the flop to go check-check or only put in a silly 2c, and then the turn comes a T, and now you end up paying off his K9 or 98, that just made a straight. You want to at least charge him to draw to those 4 outs, so that he is not totally owning you, when he hits them.


Thank you! Yeah. Still learning to not be silly :)
 
T

tzuriel

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1. In such a situation and with such opponents, it is better to call a small pair in the hope of catching your set. 2. Checking or betting one big blind with a set here is a mistake. With a set, we need to overclock the pot to have value. A 2/3 pot bet would be ideal here. Moreover, the board is coordinated. In such cases, you don't need to worry about your opponent folding.

Thanks!
 
T

tzuriel

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The goal of 3-betting with low pockets is to get a lot of folds. If villain UTG+2 tends to call 3-bets a lot, our raise won't be very effective by definition. On the other hand we have BB, from whom we should expect a lot fold equity. If you are unsure about this villain, you can get down to limper level and fill in your blind to see an MWB flop. If you think BB is a player who will always attack in these places, you should never limp here.
If we 3-bet from SB, the first thing we want is to compensate for our positional disadvantage and then we seek to send the opponents off. We can achieve this with a larger size. We should go about 6x, since they are a bit deep.
Also if we think that UTG+2 does not fold, we seek to obtain the value of many speculative hands preflop.
The V range is not only pockets, but also a lot of low, mid and high suit connectors, and a few more random hands.
Therefore on the flop we must keep bombarding with a continuation bet. At least we should do half pot, to get the value of draws and dominated hands.
Greetings.


Thank you.
 
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