$2 NLHE Full Ring: Opinions on this hand

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300HPGOD

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https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/7q17FDlD

I'm sure I played this badly but want everyone's opinions as long as its respectful. You can tear me a new one just dont tell me I suck, I already know that lol.

My thoughts on this hand as I played:

I didnt 4 bet because I thought hands I want to keep in like 88-1010 fold and the KK+ hands 5 bet and I was planning to fold to a five bet (right or wrong not sure but that was plan if it I 4 bet and the 5 bet came). QQ if it was villains holding would have been interesting pre if I 4 bet.

Flop I thought I would peel at least one expecting AK and the pairs I beat to c bet but then to shut down on the turn.

Turn gave me a straight draw which at the time I overvalued since if a K comes it would give KK the boat (same if villain has 88) but that draw plus the small bet sizing by villain (which I think was a very good sizing by villain) made me opt for the call. Two clubs on the board takes away 2 outs as well.

The river was a card that changed nothing but I didnt expect a triple barrel bluff from my opponent. I dont have their stats off hand but they were not a barreler in my opinion.

My thoughts looking back on the hand:

I think 4 betting is best being out of position and 4 bet folding is fine. I should have valued the straight draw less on the turn and decided there whether I was going with the hand or not since I dont like calling two streets and then folding river on a blank. Plus villains bet sizing on river is valuey to me with the half pot instead of jamming under pot there. I noticed that in game and thought it was value (please let me know what you think of this as well when you see a villain do this). All in all I think I played badly here but want your opinion on what you would have done and when you would have got away. Plus, any thoughts to bluffing on any post flop street here? I still dont think I would and didnt think so in game either but interested in your thoughts on that.

Thanks for your advice and help
 
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gustav197poker

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Given the depth of stacks I like the call to 3-bet of BTN. Especially when we are UTG vs BU with no information. When we suspect that villain's preflop 3-bet range is too wide (due to showdowns that demonstrate this) we can 4-bet more frequently. But we have to be prepared for more variance, because in that case we unlock combinations like AK or even AQ that a very aggressive villain could turn into a 5-bet bluff preflop. Again, how much cash is played is important, so if we are close to 100 bb we will probably be played preflop anyway.
In addition, we have a range advantage that compensates for our positional disadvantage, so it is possible to delay aggressiveness for the next streets of the postflop, while we evaluate the texture of the board.
Villain bets a neutral size on the flop. It can be interpreted that he wants to be a little weak, or is betting on a safe value. I like the call so as not to remove the dominated hands and keep all the villain's bluffs in his range
On the turn, villain makes a proportionally smaller barrel and thus appears to induce a hero bet. In general, when we do not block a flush draw and the villain's bet should be larger, it is likely that it has a blocking function. So it is possible that rank V has some AQ and KQ combos and a fixed weight on Qc.
The question is whether we think the villain can fold here. Given the dynamics of hand, that seems unlikely so I would opt to fold on the turn.
As played, the villain has no fold equity so if he has values he will most likely defend them. But V has decided on a third barrel. It really is unlikely that there are Txs in his range. The villain continues to plan to bet a neutral amount on the river, so he might think he can block a monster like a full house. All paths lead me to think that there is a queen in her rank, who would obviously die with her.
Greetings.
 
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Sidetracked

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Playing full ring, it really comes down to whether villain is at least somewhat competent and realises that you are at the top of your range and should be very strong raising from UTG.

As played, I don't think you butchered the hand. I would respectfully suggest you try 6 max cash games, though. Generally wider ranges and in my opinion, more fun and less 'nuts' orientated.
 
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fundiver199

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You can tear me a new one just dont tell me I suck, I already know that lol.

You suck!!! :D:D:D

No I am just kidding. I actually think, this is a well played hand almost textbook in fact.

Preflop
You did open with 6 guys left to act behind, so his 3-bet should be a rather strong range, and 4-betting JJ would be bordering on an overplay. Folding would be way to tight, so for me this is a standard call, and I dont even really need to think all that much about it.

Flop
As you say have to peel at least one. There is only one overcard to your JJ, and its the least scary one, which is the Q. You also lose to a T, but how often is he 3-betting with a T in his hand? Against an EP open it should be pretty rare. He can have all the AK though, and that hand missed.

Turn
On a complete brick like a deuce I would probably lean towards folding to another barrel, but you picked up an OESD, and whenever we have both a draw and a bluffcatcher, we pretty much have to call any reasonable bet. Yes the board is paired, but we cant always live in fear of those monsters under the bed. A K will give KK a boat, but it will also give AK top pair and KQ top two.

River
You did not improve, and I tend to agree with you, that I dont see many tripple barrel bluffs in his range, especially not at this limit. You also dont block any of his value. I would much rather call down with AQ or even KQs, because then you block some sets, overpairs and top pair combos, which is way more important than blocking KJ, since he probably dont 3-bet KJo and maybe not even KJs.
 
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300HPGOD

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You suck!!! :D:D:D

No I am just kidding. I actually think, this is a well played hand almost textbook in fact.


Thanks for the detailed response and all your responses which I learn a lot from. Im still up in the air on things about this hand but I keep thinking about it (not because I lost its just I like thinking about hands). After I posted this yesterday I thought more and more and think just calling pre is correct. Then later after that Im thinking what would I do here with AA, KK, or QQ. With the pre 3 bet being 18 cents and we are deep I dont think I would ever flat there with AA or KK (I would raise to build the pot). QQ would be close for me and I guess I would be flatting in game but its close. If villain is a thinking player (its hard to tell at 2NL even with some hands with the villain), but lets just assume they are to have fun with this discussion, wouldnt they be able to know that my range is capped when I call and dont 4 bet? If they were on their game they would know QQ is my top here and could play accordingly. 4 betting is a bit of an overplay but is it worth it to have our perceived range be every big hand? If I 4 bet there is a decent chance a thinking player will fold QQ there thinking JJ would not 4 bet and I (the villain) have two Q blockers so going against QQ is highly unlikely. Really not sure on that and its why I keep doubting. I know when I see other hands like this on the forum I usually say call pre but questioning my move here since I am specifically UTG (should have a very string range) and of course then will be out of position.

The turn I am also upset at myself over since when you mention with a bluff catcher and a draw we should call. I 100% agree but in this case the draw is much weaker than a normal OESD and bluffs with every barrel are becoming less likely (my opinion anyway I had in game which I still stand by). I dont think villain ever has KQ (AQ possible) since they would not 3 bet it and their hope of mine that they have AK dwindled when they double barreled. So I would think a K is still iffy for me if it came on the river and a club would make me at least hesitate because even if villain did have AK one of them is AK clubs. I really think the turn is a fold and thats where I really think I played the hand badly since it sets me up for some nasty reverse implied odds with the board already paired. Villain could already have the boat with QQ or 99 which I think are unlikely but possible (although not jamming river with either of those makes no sense so if I had to guess it wasnt one of those hands). My plan was to fold to a blank turn and the 9 sucked me in. I will agree though as time passes and I think about it more I did not play the hand as badly as I initially thought.

Again thanks for your response and your top notch quality posts that I look forward to reading.
 
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300HPGOD

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In addition, we have a range advantage that compensates for our positional disadvantage, so it is possible to delay aggressiveness for the next streets of the postflop, while we evaluate the texture of the board.


Thank for your detailed response. I agree with a lot of your post, however, I disagree with the above as we do have the range advantage to begin with but I think we give up that range advantage when we just call pre and not 4 bet. I mentioned to fundiver that I personally would never flat a 3 bet here and would 4 bet if I had AA and KK. If villain is thinking then they should be able to pick up that I am capped here at probably QQ (yes probably giving them too much credit but more fun for discussion). In knowing that then the perceived range is either even or slightly to the 3 bettor depending on how I perceive the 3 bet which no way villain could know but by default they would probably think I rarely think its bluff (it is of course at times a bluff but way more often not). I know the last few sentences is a leveling war but I do think I lose the range advantage by calling which is at least a slight reason to 4 bet. Again I am so up in the air still on calling or 4 betting. To me its a call from other positions and/or in position but specifically UTG for that perceived range reason I think a case can be made for 4 betting.
 
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gustav197poker

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Thank for your detailed response. I agree with a lot of your post, however, I disagree with the above as we do have the range advantage to begin with but I think we give up that range advantage when we just call pre and not 4 bet. I mentioned to fundiver that I personally would never flat a 3 bet here and would 4 bet if I had AA and KK. If villain is thinking then they should be able to pick up that I am capped here at probably QQ (yes probably giving them too much credit but more fun for discussion). In knowing that then the perceived range is either even or slightly to the 3 bettor depending on how I perceive the 3 bet which no way villain could know but by default they would probably think I rarely think its bluff (it is of course at times a bluff but way more often not). I know the last few sentences is a leveling war but I do think I lose the range advantage by calling which is at least a slight reason to 4 bet. Again I am so up in the air still on calling or 4 betting. To me its a call from other positions and/or in position but specifically UTG for that perceived range reason I think a case can be made for 4 betting.



When villain can only have AA and KK in his 5-bet range preflop, we want to keep all the combos: AQ and AJ in his 3-bet range preflop (especially when we block AJ). Therefore the possibility of including AK in the V range decreases as we progress through the postflop.
Hero could 4-bet preflop representing an AK, but that means that you will fold 100% of the time a shove of villain.
On the turn, the proportional change the villain makes with his barrel looks like a polarizing change. That is, it could have a pure bluff, when our perceived range becomes is weak. But we don't have that direct picture, because we called again on the flop. We actually have a semi nuts advantage on the turn. But it is important that the villain understand that. So I think the most likely options could be push or fold on the turn.
 
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fundiver199

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If villain is a thinking player (its hard to tell at 2NL even with some hands with the villain), but lets just assume they are to have fun with this discussion, wouldnt they be able to know that my range is capped when I call and dont 4 bet?


Sure but thats always going to be case, unless you only defend against 3-bets by 4-betting. Or in general only defend against any bet by raising. Whenever we just call, we are inherently capped, but calling can still be profitable, because we are getting a price. This cover basically any situation including defending blinds, defending to 3-bets or 4-bets preflop and defending to any postflop aggression.

If you feel, someone is overly aggressive, then you can exploit them by strengtening your calling range to sometimes have those very strong hands and then basically let them hang themselfes. I would certainly default 4-bet AA and KK in this situation, but against the right opponent there is nothing wrong with mixing in a call now and then.

On the other hand if I wanted to widen my 4-betting range, then I would rather 4-bet a hand like A5s, which has better blockers, and which I dont mind folding to a 5-bet. In theoretical terms this is known as a polarized rather than linear range. In you 4-bet JJ and get 5-bet, you probably have to fold, and that sucks, because JJ has a lot of equity against his 3-betting range.
 
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gustav197poker

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When villain can only have AA and KK in his 5-bet range preflop, we want to keep all the combos: AQ and AJ in his 3-bet range preflop (especially when we block AJ). Therefore the possibility of including AK in the V range decreases as we progress through the postflop.
Hero could 4-bet preflop representing an AK, but that means that you will fold 100% of the time a shove of villain.
On the turn, the proportional change the villain makes with his barrel looks like a polarizing change. That is, it could have a pure bluff, when our perceived range becomes is weak. But we don't have that direct picture, because we called again on the flop. We actually have a semi nuts advantage on the turn. But it is important that the villain understand that. So I think the most likely options could be push or fold on the turn.


And if you 4-bet with JJ (representing a QQ) your intention is to unlock a 5-bet bluff range on villain. (with AK). But since we are UTG, our perceived range is very strong. So your villain does not want to block a 5-bet range from you, because he will only isolate himself with hands that defeat him. If you were on BU and your villain on BB, you might be looking to catch a bluff on a 5-bet call preflop, when you think your opponent's range is too wide.
But in this hand, if you decide to 4-bet preflop, unless your opponent is super aggressive, his calling range will be tighter and he will generally have better blockers than you for postflop.
You can obviously exploit any leak you find in the villain. If he folds a lot on the turn, you could hit the gas there, as you could represent a 99 full house that called 3-bet preflop.
 
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Casey55

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I like the call pre-flop aswell. BTN should have a strong 3-bet range versus UTG like AK,AQ, TT+. I am thinking this flop is not the best for hero because villain having TT is very low only 1 combo and us having JJ feels kind of bad because now therea only 1 combo of that aswell which makes me think his range is all better overpairs and hands like AQ now have a pair, i am thinking only thing you are beating is AK here.

On the turn when Villain bets half pot we are getting 3:1. We have 2 outs to hit a Jack on the river and 8 outs for the straight, any King or 8.This gives us roughly 20% equity I believe. Thing is theres also a chance if a king hits its not good if villain holds KK himself . I could be wrong but i think fold turn might be good.
 
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