$2 NLHE Full Ring: Did I bet the right amount on turn? Should I have bet on the river?

[nameless1537]

$2 NLHE Full Ring: Did I bet the right amount on turn? Should I have bet on the river?

pokerstars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BTN: 83.5 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
SB: 80.5 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 6)
BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 16.67, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
UTG: 25 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)
UTG+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 14.04, PFR: 10.53, 3Bet Preflop: 1.47, Hands: 172)
Hero (MP): 97.5 BB
MP+1: 95 BB (VPIP: 20.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
MP+2: 107.5 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 16.67, 3Bet Preflop: 33.33, Hands: 6)
CO: 79.5 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 6)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9h 8h
UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, fold, BTN calls 9 BB, fold, fold, UTG calls 6 BB

Flop : (28.5 BB, 3 players) Qs 5d 7c
UTG checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn : (28.5 BB, 3 players) 6s
UTG checks, Hero bets 14 BB, BTN calls 14 BB, fold

River : (56.5 BB, 2 players) As
Hero bets 14 BB, BTN raises to 55 BB, fold

BTN wins 81.5 BB

As you can see, this was done early in my session so I had little data to go on in terms of knowing the tendencies of my opponents.

So let me walk you through my thinking process in here. One of the areas of my game that I'm working on is my 3bet strategy... and one of the ideas is that if I'm going to 3bet someone who is raising in EP, then I don't really want my cards to overlap with theirs (although I guess it matters less if I'm in position as I could just use my position to my advantage). Nevertheless, I like to 3bet with suited connectors right around this range (or if it's a value 3bet when I have very strong hole cards) and if the cards that show up are less than broadway cards, I'll likely raise any continuation bet thinking that the flop wouldn't hit the UTG raiser. Of course, I had no data on whether anyone would call behind me on my 3bet but hey... if someone wants to call me on the button, that's their prerogative right?

Anyway, I didn't cbet on the flop (even though I had a gutshot straight draw) and nobody hit either... so presumably the flop hit nobody or someone is slowplaying a set... or maybe paired up with the low card). One thing I'm also trying to do is cut back on my cbet frequency -- it's been identified as being too high (at 93%) in pokertracker... so I figured that not hitting the flop strong and playing against two other players is a good place to just check the flop.

On the turn, I got my straight, but the spade also gave others a flush draw on the river. So to counter that, I decided to bet 1/2 pot on the river... to discourage someone to fish for the flush. In hindsight, should I have bet the full pot to really protect my hand? Or overbet the pot? Especially since I got my gutshot straight and the nuts so far? And if I overbet, how would I handle the river if called (and got that dreaded 3rd spade to plant that seed of doubt in my mind).

In any case, the button called and the river was the As to complete the flush draw. I did not have the strongest hand, and yet I decided to throw out a bet anyway, hoping to get a call if button paired something on the board or something. But instead, he raised on me and given his passive play in this hand so far, I am assuming that he was drawing for something, and very possibly a flush. So I folded against his re-raise.

Was my mistake on the river actually throwing out a 1/3 (approx) sized bet? Or was my mistake folding on the re-raise? If I checked the river, should I have had a bet size in my mind that I'd be willing to call? Maybe like a 1/2 pot max?

 

[Alucard]

That 3bet is way too loose specially vs a 25BB short stack who's opening utg full ring. You are gonna get jammed a lot.
River should be an easy call with the SPR, almost never folding a straight there but I'm jamming river > I see no other bet on river than a jam tbh

 

[fundiver199]

When looking for hands to 3-bet preflop, you should consider not only the position of the original raiser but also your own position. In this hand you were UTG+2 at full ring, and then 98s should not even be played, when you are first to enter the pot. There are simply to many players left to act after you, who could all wake up with a hand, they want to play. And when a hand is not even an open, its fairly obvious, its not a call or 3-bet either.

Flop check is fine. I also dont see any reason to set money on fire trying to get two opponents off a massive spot, when you only have a gutshot to back you up, when they give action. Nice turn card. Yes I would bet bigger here. I think, it generate more value, especially against fishy opponents at 2NL. A big turn bet also set it up for a much easier river shove, and when I have the nuts, I want to get my stack inside.

River card was obviously not ideal, but you need to consider, how many flushes he realistically have here. The ace and queen are spoken for, so he cant have any of the strongest suited hands like AK, AQ, AJ or KQ. So to have a flush here, he had to make a pretty loose call of your 3-bet with KJs or some suited connector like JT or lower.

This is possible of course, especially because its 2NL, and he did not start with a full stack, so he is probably a fish. So he will have more flushes here, than he should, but your hand is still to strong to bet-fold. He could have AQ here or a slowplayed set and think, he is raising for value, or he could be bluffing, although that is probably not very likely to be honest with you. But if you bet larger on the turn and jam the river, it just is, what it is. Sometimes he will flip over a flush, and you have huge egg all over your face, but you generate more value in the long run, when he dont suck out on you.

 

[Boston10111]

Lots of good advice so far. As one other said. Probably not the best spot to 3-bet with 98 considering how many people were still behind you that could possibly retails or jam on you forcing you to fold.

Considering that fact you did do a 3-bet pre flop I probably would’ve bet on the flop to show strength maybe I had AQ and hit the queen on flop is what I’m trying to show, though you did have a gut shot so you know you can improve. Maybe bet a third on flop. This would also push off anyone with a backdoor flush but missed the board.


Considering you did check flop as well as everyone else, at this point I would bet pot if day someone was on a flush draw. But you didn’t have much info so wouldn’t probably have a good read.


As far as the shove on the river from the button, I would’ve called. You have the nut straight and the only thing beating you would be a flush though he was probably calling with AK, AQ, AJ, QQ, KK, Etc... making his flush unlikely because his range should be premium cards with your 3-bet pre flop.

The guy could’ve been shoving you with a pair of aces, two pair, or a set which is more likely than the flush in my opinion

 

[fundiver199]

To be honest I think, BTN has a flush here a lot, but this is also, what makes a large turn bet so attractive. I even think, an overbet is a really sexy option. He had around 75BB left, and if we bet something like half his stack, it will look bluffy, and we make drawing super expensive. BTN is almost certainly a fish, and the way to beat fish is to hammer on them with big value bets, especially when we have the stone cold nuts. Half pot bets are more for regulars and dry board textures.

 

[nameless1537]

That 3bet is way too loose specially vs a 25BB short stack who's opening utg full ring. You are gonna get jammed a lot.
River should be an easy call with the SPR, almost never folding a straight there but I'm jamming river > I see no other bet on river than a jam tbh

Good point raised, and it's something that I considered prior to 3betting, but this happened to the short stack literally 2 hands prior:


PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BB: 91 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 4)
UTG: 77 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
UTG+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
MP: 57 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
MP+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 14.20, PFR: 10.65, 3Bet Preflop: 1.49, Hands: 170)
Hero (MP+2): 97.5 BB
CO: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
BTN: 70.5 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 4)
SB: 80 BB (VPIP: 75.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6h 5s
fold, fold, MP raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop : (9.5 BB, 3 players) 4s 3s 6c
BB checks, MP bets 4 BB, BTN calls 4 BB, BB calls 4 BB

Turn : (21.5 BB, 3 players) 9s
BB checks, MP bets 10 BB, BTN calls 10 BB, fold

River : (41.5 BB, 2 players) 7c
MP bets 15 BB, BTN calls 15 BB

MP shows As Tc (High Card, Ace)
(Pre 45%, Flop 29%, Turn 17%)

BTN shows 9d 9h (Three of a Kind, Nines)
(Pre 55%, Flop 71%, Turn 83%)

BTN wins 69 BB

Basically, he got caught with his pants down on an attempt on a multi-tunnel bluff, and tried to bluff the river too. So I'm guessing that if he doesn't hit the flop, he won't jam... so I wasn't really worried about that in this scenario. In any other scenario, I'd be concerned enough not to 3bet against a short-stack.

If he jams with a 4bet, it means he has something (again, he already has egg on his face... not sure if he wants to get caught bluffing with very little twice in 3 hands) and I'd probably fold . If he jams on the flop, it means he actually caught something decent on t and I would fold because I was putting him on something like AJs, TT+ type of hand preflop and again, it would not have overlapped with what I had, so it would have been an easy fold for me. I was hoping that he would fold to my 3bet or fold to a bluff if he doesn't bet on the flop.

 

[nameless1537]

When looking for hands to 3-bet preflop, you should consider not only the position of the original raiser but also your own position. In this hand you were UTG+2 at full ring, and then 98s should not even be played, when you are first to enter the pot. There are simply to many players left to act after you, who could all wake up with a hand, they want to play. And when a hand is not even an open, its fairly obvious, its not a call or 3-bet either.

Good point. I think this is part of my learning curve as I am trying to figure out how to adopt a bit more of a loose-aggressive type of style in my play, so I'm expanding my opening range. True, there were 3 or 4 players to act behind me, but I also figured that anyone cold calling my 3 bet when they don't really "know" me (it was a new table) would be doing so with a pretty strong hand (A with high kicker, K suited connector or gapper, or possibly 99+). If he had a pocket QQ+, I would anticipate a raise rather than a call...

I'm not defending my decision, mind you... it's just my thought process when I put out my 3bet. It's something I'll consider going forward though... so thanks for the feedback.

Flop check is fine. I also dont see any reason to set money on fire trying to get two opponents off a massive spot, when you only have a gutshot to back you up, when they give action. Nice turn card. Yes I would bet bigger here. I think, it generate more value, especially against fishy opponents at 2NL. A big turn bet also set it up for a much easier river shove, and when I have the nuts, I want to get my stack inside.
That's what I'm thinking here too... but you address this more later... so I'll answer this point later in this post.

River card was obviously not ideal, but you need to consider, how many flushes he realistically have here. The ace and queen are spoken for, so he cant have any of the strongest suited hands like AK, AQ, AJ or KQ. So to have a flush here, he had to make a pretty loose call of your 3-bet with KJs or some suited connector like JT or lower.
These thoughts did cross my mind... but with the As, it eliminated a big possible part of his range. So could he have called a 3bet preflop with a K suited connector or gapper? I really didn't think that he could have made a set... I don't anticipate that he'd simply call a 3bet with a pocket pair lower than TT and again, if he had QQ, perhaps 4bet.

This is possible of course, especially because its 2NL, and he did not start with a full stack, so he is probably a fish. So he will have more flushes here, than he should, but your hand is still to strong to bet-fold. He could have AQ here or a slowplayed set and think, he is raising for value, or he could be bluffing, although that is probably not very likely to be honest with you. But if you bet larger on the turn and jam the river, it just is, what it is. Sometimes he will flip over a flush, and you have huge egg all over your face, but you generate more value in the long run, when he dont suck out on you.
Part of the problem for me is that just the day prior, I lost a good chunk of my stack jamming the river on a very similar situation where I hit a straight, but there was also a flush draw on the board. I got called with a straight and button turned over a flush. I don't regret my decision to jam the river... but it lingered in my mind just enough to make me reluctant to call and have this happen to me two days in a row and leave a lasting imprint that would make me reluctant to jam ever again with a made straight vs. a flush draw. Ok... maybe ever is too strong of a word... but I really didn't want to have the same thing happen to me again. That's partly why I folded.

As far as the shove on the river from the button, I would’ve called. You have the nut straight and the only thing beating you would be a flush though he was probably calling with AK, AQ, AJ, QQ, KK, Etc... making his flush unlikely because his range should be premium cards with your 3-bet pre flop.


The guy could’ve been shoving you with a pair of aces, two pair, or a set which is more likely than the flush in my opinion
I totally agree. Grrr... if I didn't have lose on a river jam with a straight vs. flush the prior day, I probably would have called. Sigh.

To be honest I think, BTN has a flush here a lot, but this is also, what makes a large turn bet so attractive. I even think, an overbet is a really sexy option. He had around 75BB left, and if we bet something like half his stack, it will look bluffy, and we make drawing super expensive. BTN is almost certainly a fish, and the way to beat fish is to hammer on them with big value bets, especially when we have the stone cold nuts. Half pot bets are more for regulars and dry board textures.
Yes. That's what I think I'll do in future if this happens again. My standard post-flop bet is half-pot if I hit a pair and guarding against a flush or straight draw. But I made a nut straight, with two others in the pot... so a higher bet would have been more smart, as it would have made a drawing hand really foolish to call. And if he is trying to draw to a flush, and I get rivered, I just need to slow clap and move on, with satisfaction that I bet well for value but got a bad beat by a crappy call. And good note on when half-pot bets are more for regulars (and presumably, higher stakes) and pot-sized bets are probably better in these kinds of situations against fish.

Thanks for your feedback folks. I addressed the points (in bold) above. I think I learned a bit from this experience and I will integrate lessons learned in future hands.

 

[nameless1537]

Good point raised, and it's something that I considered prior to 3betting, but this happened to the short stack literally 2 hands prior:


PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

BB: 91 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 50.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 4)
UTG: 77 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
UTG+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
MP: 57 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)
MP+1: 100 BB (VPIP: 14.20, PFR: 10.65, 3Bet Preflop: 1.49, Hands: 170)
Hero (MP+2): 97.5 BB
CO: 98.5 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
BTN: 70.5 BB (VPIP: 50.00, PFR: 25.00, 3Bet Preflop: 50.00, Hands: 4)
SB: 80 BB (VPIP: 75.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 4)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6h 5s
fold, fold, MP raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, BTN calls 3 BB, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop : (9.5 BB, 3 players) 4s 3s 6c
BB checks, MP bets 4 BB, BTN calls 4 BB, BB calls 4 BB

Turn : (21.5 BB, 3 players) 9s
BB checks, MP bets 10 BB, BTN calls 10 BB, fold

River : (41.5 BB, 2 players) 7c
MP bets 15 BB, BTN calls 15 BB

MP shows As Tc (High Card, Ace)
(Pre 45%, Flop 29%, Turn 17%)

BTN shows 9d 9h (Three of a Kind, Nines)
(Pre 55%, Flop 71%, Turn 83%)

BTN wins 69 BB

Basically, he got caught with his pants down on an attempt on a multi-tunnel bluff, and tried to bluff the river too. So I'm guessing that if he doesn't hit the flop, he won't jam... so I wasn't really worried about that in this scenario. In any other scenario, I'd be concerned enough not to 3bet against a short-stack.

If he jams with a 4bet, it means he has something (again, he already has egg on his face... not sure if he wants to get caught bluffing with very little twice in 3 hands) and I'd probably fold . If he jams on the flop, it means he actually caught something decent on t and I would fold because I was putting him on something like AJs, TT+ type of hand preflop and again, it would not have overlapped with what I had, so it would have been an easy fold for me. I was hoping that he would fold to my 3bet or fold to a bluff if he doesn't bet on the flop.

Whoops. I’m such a noob. The term I was going for was a multi-barrel bluff... or triple barrel bluff, not tunnel. Haha