$2 NLHE Full Ring: Hand Review - Call or fold on river?

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roshdc

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Hi All,

I had an interesting hand today and I wondered what you guys thought about call or fold on the river. And any other thoughts you had.

PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players

SB: 70 BB
BB: 95.5 BB
UTG: 120.5 BB
Hero (UTG+1): 153 BB
MP: 64 BB
MP+1: 241 BB
CO: 74.5 BB
BTN: 97.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6 6

UTG raises to 2 BB, Hero calls 2 BB, MP calls 2 BB, fold, CO calls 2 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 1 BB

Flop: (10.5 BB, 5 players) K 6 2
BB bets 1 BB, UTG raises to 2 BB, Hero raises to 8 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 7 BB, UTG calls 6 BB

Turn: (34.5 BB, 3 players) A
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets 25 BB, BB calls 25 BB, UTG calls 25 BB

River: (109.5 BB, 3 players) Q
BB checks, UTG bets 1 BB, Hero calls 1 BB, BB raises to 60.5 BB and is all-in, fold,
 
F

fundiver199

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Preflop
Calling here to setmine is fine.

Flop
Like your raise and also the sizing.

Turn
Now the flush got there, but I am still on board with betting for value with your set.

River
It really sucks, that UTG made this silly fish bet and reopened the betting for BB. I would not hate checking back here, but because of UTG you are put in a situation, where you kind of have to call. Just calling the 1BB fish bet look weak, so BB might try to steal the pot or think, his two pair is good.
 
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pandapower99

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UTG donk leads which alot of the time at this level indicates a draw of some kind. When the flush comes you should check behind on the turn to keep the pot small and then call a reasonable bet on the river assuming it's not club or the board doesn't pair in your favour.

I think it's generally a good fold, I can't see too many villains bluffing big on the river at this level even though I hate folding sets. Unless you believe villain does this with two pair then it's a fold. I can be a bit of a station and call it off and make note either villain big bet on river is nuts or villain is maniac and never fold to him
 
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roshdc

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Hey guys yea that was great.

I agree that in retrospect I should have NOT bet on the turn and then maybe check/called in the river instead because the pot would have been smaller.

Did a flush draw have odds to call on the flop? I was concerned it was too small?

I think the all in on the river came because we looked weak as I did actually call it reluctantly and the villain had AK.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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Hi All,

I had an interesting hand today and I wondered what you guys thought about call or fold on the river. And any other thoughts you had.

PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players

SB: 70 BB
BB: 95.5 BB
UTG: 120.5 BB
Hero (UTG+1): 153 BB
MP: 64 BB
MP+1: 241 BB
CO: 74.5 BB
BTN: 97.5 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 6 6

UTG raises to 2 BB, Hero calls 2 BB, MP calls 2 BB, fold, CO calls 2 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 1 BB

Flop: (10.5 BB, 5 players) K 6 2
BB bets 1 BB, UTG raises to 2 BB, Hero raises to 8 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 7 BB, UTG calls 6 BB

Turn: (34.5 BB, 3 players) A
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets 25 BB, BB calls 25 BB, UTG calls 25 BB

River: (109.5 BB, 3 players) Q
BB checks, UTG bets 1 BB, Hero calls 1 BB, BB raises to 60.5 BB and is all-in, fold,


It is fine to be calling with all of the pocket pairs at the micros when someone opens behind. The reason is because players almost never 3-bet/Squeeze, and we are going to get a good price for setmining almost always because the player in the Big Blind will have better odds/price for calling with a wider defensing range.
Having said that, many players enter into the pot and we must take this postflop game cautiously. This flop is very good for our range because we hit our set, and after UTG and UTG+1 actions it is okay to be raising, because our hand needs a little bit of protection here. Plus the fact that many players could now be defending Kx, straight draws and the flush draws of clubs. The only problem of raising this flop is the player sitting in the UTG position: UTG can still display KK, AA, and AK, but this is a small part of their ranges. Let's also consider we have no information about Villains, so if we try to be too much smart, we are just speculating and overvaluying some strong holding.
We assume that when they call, they called with Kx, which might include KQ, KJ and AK,(more AK and KQ for UTG's ranges than BB's ranges), the flush draws of clubs and sometimes the straights. It is strange to imagine someone calling with Top Set here (If UTG holds KK for example), and even TPTK (AK) it is strange to be playing like this, but hey, we are talking about 2 NLHE, anything is possible since most are underthinking.
The Turn is not a good card at all, because although we have position, two players had already entered into a giant pot and now, if we do continue c-betting there is a great chance that players are going to fold their seconds best hands and draws and continue paying with the flushes and a few flush draws of clubs, of course. Besides, UTG can display in its range AK, KK and AA, let's not forget about it, so we assume more FDs and SDs on BB's ranges.
After UTG bets one blind it seems it has a weak/marginal hand for this kind of board, something like Kx, Qx, Ax, maybe AQ, whatever and as long as the river is too wetty/drawie, it is okay to be just calling to see BB's reactions. When BB goes all-in we have a real good price, but at 2 NLHE I believe the weaker hands that are shoving this river are better sets than ours, straights and flushes.
With no information at all about the opponents, even with good price, we must be folding our set that has lost a ton of Value OTT and OTR it became a marginal hand (at this stake and particular scenario).

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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c0rnBr34d

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This trap would work on me. I would call. There's exactly one straight here which is JT. How on earth does JT call a cold 3 bet on the flop and then call a 2/3 bet on the turn with a gutter ball potentially facing a made flush and with two over cards on board? I am willing to pay off JT here all day every day given the action. The fact that the Ac is on board slightly reduces the number of made flushes in a protected, single raised pot pre flop (even though it was a min raise vs the BB). Most players will try to get value with a flush here on the turn or river with at least value sizing. This line is dangerous for made flushes as it risks the river checking behind with so much value left behind. V will have a flush some of the time here but I think V shows up with two pair or spaz / bluffs often enough to look him up for this price given the action. If V has the Kc, his line makes sense and I like his river bluff as he blocks the nuts. That would mean he flopped top pair turned the nut flush draw and saw weak river action and turned second pair (or two pair) into a bluff on a scary board where no one is showing much interest. I may have played KcX the same way. Not a fun spot but given the action and the number of flush combos BB has here I'm not folding this river.

Obviously reads always matter and if BB is passive or nitty we can find a fold but with no reads I'm calling here.
 
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roshdc

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This trap would work on me. I would call. There's exactly one straight here which is JT. How on earth does JT call a cold 3 bet on the flop and then call a 2/3 bet on the turn with a gutter ball potentially facing a made flush and with two over cards on board? I am willing to pay off JT here all day every day given the action. The fact that the Ac is on board slightly reduces the number of made flushes in a protected, single raised pot pre flop (even though it was a min raise vs the BB). Most players will try to get value with a flush here on the turn or river with at least value sizing. This line is dangerous for made flushes as it risks the river checking behind with so much value left behind. V will have a flush some of the time here but I think V shows up with two pair or spaz / bluffs often enough to look him up for this price given the action. If V has the Kc, his line makes sense and I like his river bluff as he blocks the nuts. That would mean he flopped top pair turned the nut flush draw and saw weak river action and turned second pair (or two pair) into a bluff on a scary board where no one is showing much interest. I may have played KcX the same way. Not a fun spot but given the action and the number of flush combos BB has here I'm not folding this river.

Obviously reads always matter and if BB is passive or nitty we can find a fold but with no reads I'm calling here.

Yea, I like the thoughts from this post and the last.

So I did call with gritted teeth thinking "Surely this has to be a flush". But actually you read this correct and Villain turned over AKo.

He must of detected weakness at a 1BB bet and call and just decided to shove.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Yea, I like the thoughts from this post and the last.

So I did call with gritted teeth thinking "Surely this has to be a flush". But actually you read this correct and Villain turned over AKo.

He must of detected weakness at a 1BB bet and call and just decided to shove.
Nice hand. Do you remember if he had the K of clubs? I don't like this river shove nearly as much if he just had top two here because what does he expect to get called by that he can beat? Pretty much only a sticky KQ.
 
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roshdc

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Nice hand. Do you remember if he had the K of clubs? I don't like this river shove nearly as much if he just had top two here because what does he expect to get called by that he can beat? Pretty much only a sticky KQ.

Yea I am really not sure what he was hoping for.

Yea he had king of clubs and Ace of hearts.

Yea it worked out as second best payout on a hand I've had haha.
 
Dkerridge14

Dkerridge14

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You have to go with it

It’s a spot where you just have to call, you’ve maintained strength throughout the hand so they are heavily weighted to like 2p kind of hands and sometimes weak flush’s but a call is 100% the best play
 
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Mercurius

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The only thing I would have done differently is the turn.

I think the sizing here is too big - you can rep the flush yourself with a 1/3 to 1/2 pot bet, folding out some draws and protecting your hand - this size to me means you will only see calls from the flush (I now see in the responses that the only other calling hand that doesn't beat you did come along albeit he still had a draw to the nuts and a solid hand!)

I think it's a good result and well extracted value from your set, so congrats. However, I'd be wary of taking this line again as I think the outcome was a lucky result given Villain had the only losing hand that was coming with you on the turn bet you made.

I'd be looking to bet lower on both streets for value (Turn and River), or check back the turn and be prepared to call down a bet ahead of you on the river. Lowers the downside risk and you still likely get paid off at a decent price for set-mining
 
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johnsulliv

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I’m 3betting to 4-7bb preflop.
And checking the flop against one opponent but raising something like 58% pot against more than one opponent.
I believe your giving the villains too much control over the pot in general, in this hand.
 
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