$2 NLHE Full Ring: Good fold?

J

johnoman

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PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 115 BB
UTG+1: 63 BB
MP: 94.5 BB
MP+1: 99 BB
CO: 120.5 BB
BTN: 111.5 BB
Hero (SB): 176 BB
BB: 104.5 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:diamond: Q:diamond:

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, BTN calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, UTG calls 4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (13 BB, 2 players) J:spade: 6:heart: 7:club:
Hero bets 7.5 BB, UTG calls 7.5 BB

Turn: (28 BB, 2 players) 4:club:
Hero checks, UTG bets 11 BB, Hero calls 11 BB

River: (50 BB, 2 players) 9:club:
Hero checks, UTG bets 22.5 BB, fold

UTG wins 48 BB
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 115 BB
UTG+1: 63 BB
MP: 94.5 BB
MP+1: 99 BB
CO: 120.5 BB
BTN: 111.5 BB
Hero (SB): 176 BB
BB: 104.5 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J Q

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, BTN calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, UTG calls 4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (13 BB, 2 players) J 6 7
Hero bets 7.5 BB, UTG calls 7.5 BB

Turn: (28 BB, 2 players) 4
Hero checks, UTG bets 11 BB, Hero calls 11 BB

River: (50 BB, 2 players) 9
Hero checks, UTG bets 22.5 BB, fold

UTG wins 48 BB

Well played Mr. John. The only thing I would do different is the c-bet flop, either I am checking more out of position or I am betting a little bit less, but it is okay.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
J

johnoman

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Well played Mr. John. The only thing I would do different is the c-bet flop, either I am checking more out of position or I am betting a little bit less, but it is okay.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa



That's good to read - thank you.

My thinking on the river - villain was on some kind of 2P hand. Potential J9 with the flop-call and river bet.
What sort of range would you go for with this villain?
Or a suited J hand completing the flush.
 
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najisami

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PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 115 BB
UTG+1: 63 BB
MP: 94.5 BB
MP+1: 99 BB
CO: 120.5 BB
BTN: 111.5 BB
Hero (SB): 176 BB
BB: 104.5 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J Q

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, BTN calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, UTG calls 4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (13 BB, 2 players) J 6 7
Hero bets 7.5 BB, UTG calls 7.5 BB

Turn: (28 BB, 2 players) 4
Hero checks, UTG bets 11 BB, Hero calls 11 BB

River: (50 BB, 2 players) 9
Hero checks, UTG bets 22.5 BB, fold

UTG wins 48 BB

Hey John,
The fold was probably the right thing to do especially if you have some kind of info about your opponent that you haven't mentioned to us. But what I didn't like much was the check on the turn. His call on the flop indicates a float or a draw, a bet on the turn would've gotten you more info or even won you the pot right there.
 
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johnoman

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Hey John,
The fold was probably the right thing to do especially if you have some kind of info about your opponent that you haven't mentioned to us. But what I didn't like much was the check on the turn. His call on the flop indicates a float or a draw, a bet on the turn would've gotten you more info or even won you the pot right there.


That's a fair point. Judging by his history at the table you are probably correct too.
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
I prefer isolating limpers in position rather than out of position, so with a playable but not exactly nutted hand like QJs, this seems like a perfect spot to just complete from SB and take a cheap flop. If raising does not really do anything other than bloat the pot, it is better to not raise.

Flop
Flopped top pair, totally on board with C-betting.

Turn
I dont understand this check. 4c changes nothing, so what are you afraid off? He could have some hands, that beat you of course, but if he can have for instance 85, which just made a straight, then he can have a million other hands as well. So just bet for value. Your hand is easily good enough for 3 streets against a fish, who limped into the pot and then called a raise.

River
This fold is to nitty. When you check the turn on a blank, you indicate, that you have nothing. You underrepresent your hand. And then you pretty much have to call down on any reasonable runout. Sure he could have backdoored into a flush, but he could also have a million hands, you still beat, and because of your turn check you have literally no information about his range.

Conclusion
The whole issue in this hand began preflop. When you isolated out of position, you created a large pot, which apparently you were not comfortable to play postflop. Had you just completed, the pot would be a lot smaller, and you would likely be a lot more comfortable with bets going in postflop on all streets. One of the things, you can not do out of position, is to pot control by checking back. And this is part of the reason why, you dont want to start bloating the pot already preflop with a hand, where its not clearly for value.
 
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Ianmacca99

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Preflop your sizing needs to be bigger your OOP for the rest of the hand and you need to punish the limpers by making it around 8-10 bb

I don't mind your cbet sizing you've made it around 60% I do prefer a slightly smaller size as if you had missed the flop you should be cbetting this board with most of your range so a smaller sizing doesn't risk as much when you are bluffing.

On this turn there's not a lot that beats you AJ KJ can't see 53 or 85 in his range. he could have the occasional set 6s or 7s and I think 4s would of more than likely folded on this flop so think you need to continue to bet for value to charge draws and lower Jx hands

On the river the flush draw has got there as well as a few unlikely straights he could be betting 2pairs such as J9 i think this is a fold IMO
 
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Delfino

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I think I would call. You only need about 30% to win here to be equal. He might have a bluff - many players would do that with busted draw. He might have worse jack - a hand like J10. I think calling here is a matter of pot odds - they are quite good.
 
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johnoman

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I think I'm realising a big error in this hand was definitely the check on the turn.
As mentioned, the 4 didn't affect anything.
 
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johnoman

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Preflop
I prefer isolating limpers in position rather than out of position, so with a playable but not exactly nutted hand like QJs, this seems like a perfect spot to just complete from SB and take a cheap flop. If raising does not really do anything other than bloat the pot, it is better to not raise.

Flop
Flopped top pair, totally on board with C-betting.

Turn
I dont understand this check. 4c changes nothing, so what are you afraid off? He could have some hands, that beat you of course, but if he can have for instance 85, which just made a straight, then he can have a million other hands as well. So just bet for value. Your hand is easily good enough for 3 streets against a fish, who limped into the pot and then called a raise.

River
This fold is to nitty. When you check the turn on a blank, you indicate, that you have nothing. You underrepresent your hand. And then you pretty much have to call down on any reasonable runout. Sure he could have backdoored into a flush, but he could also have a million hands, you still beat, and because of your turn check you have literally no information about his range.

Conclusion
The whole issue in this hand began preflop. When you isolated out of position, you created a large pot, which apparently you were not comfortable to play postflop. Had you just completed, the pot would be a lot smaller, and you would likely be a lot more comfortable with bets going in postflop on all streets. One of the things, you can not do out of position, is to pot control by checking back. And this is part of the reason why, you dont want to start bloating the pot already preflop with a hand, where its not clearly for value.

That's a really good analysis - thanks for that.
 
liuouhgkres

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I think I'm realising a big error in this hand was definitely the check on the turn.
As mentioned, the 4 didn't affect anything.


You are realizing it wrong, guys here are very weak and their hand analysis are wrong too most of the time. Your turn check was correct, but I will break down everything from beginning.

Preflop. This is a decent hand to raise, especially when you play from SB, it's good to have raise or fold strategy. You should raise linear 13%-15% percent and never call. Your sizing is a bit small, should make it 7bb-7.5bb. Well played overall.

Flop. This board is not exactly good for your range, because villain can have small sets. For this reason you should bet polarized range. That also means you should use big sizing. Your sizing is too small, you should make it around 75%. Well played overall.

Turn. When villain calls flop, you can go and bet turn all of your strong hands, you need to have stronger betting range and you also need to have some hands that can check call turn. On the turn you should continue betting with small sets, overpairs and AJ and check all weaker jacks (also should check JJ) Your check with QJ was good. Obviously, once villain bets we call. Well played.

River. In your range you have better bluff catchers. QJ, KJ with one club, because they block a flush, you can have some flushes that you checked on the turn. Funny enough, calling even with 7 is better than a naked J, because with 7 you block sets and two pairs and with J you don't. Good fold.

Overall, you played this hand really well, much better than I expect from someone playing NL2.
 
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johnoman

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You are realizing it wrong, guys here are very weak and their hand analysis are wrong too most of the time. Your turn check was correct, but I will break down everything from beginning.

Preflop. This is a decent hand to raise, especially when you play from SB, it's good to have raise or fold strategy. You should raise linear 13%-15% percent and never call. Your sizing is a bit small, should make it 7bb-7.5bb. Well played overall.

Flop. This board is not exactly good for your range, because villain can have small sets. For this reason you should bet polarized range. That also means you should use big sizing. Your sizing is too small, you should make it around 75%. Well played overall.

Turn. When villain calls flop, you can go and bet turn all of your strong hands, you need to have stronger betting range and you also need to have some hands that can check call turn. On the turn you should continue betting with small sets, overpairs and AJ and check all weaker jacks (also should check JJ) Your check with QJ was good. Obviously, once villain bets we call. Well played.

River. In your range you have better bluff catchers. QJ, KJ with one club, because they block a flush, you can have some flushes that you checked on the turn. Funny enough, calling even with 7 is better than a naked J, because with 7 you block sets and two pairs and with J you don't. Good fold.

Overall, you played this hand really well, much better than I expect from someone playing NL2.

Thanks for that one.

These are the kinds of spots where I think I'm playing horrendously.
 
Derifish17

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PokerStars - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

UTG: 115 BB
UTG+1: 63 BB
MP: 94.5 BB
MP+1: 99 BB
CO: 120.5 BB
BTN: 111.5 BB
Hero (SB): 176 BB
BB: 104.5 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J[emoji815]: Q[emoji815]:

UTG calls 1 BB, fold, fold, fold, CO calls 1 BB, BTN calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, UTG calls 4 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (13 BB, 2 players) J[emoji812]: 6[emoji813] 7[emoji814]:
Hero bets 7.5 BB, UTG calls 7.5 BB

Turn: (28 BB, 2 players) 4[emoji814]:
Hero checks, UTG bets 11 BB, Hero calls 11 BB

River: (50 BB, 2 players) 9[emoji814]:
Hero checks, UTG bets 22.5 BB, fold

UTG wins 48 BB
Yea I'd say good fold looks like he limped called with possibly overpair or something like AJ or KJ so u was losing to most of his check calling range
 
Derifish17

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That's good to read - thank you.

My thinking on the river - villain was on some kind of 2P hand. Potential J9 with the flop-call and river bet.
What sort of range would you go for with this villain?
Or a suited J hand completing the flush.
I was thinking like AJ or KJ suited so good read and good play
 
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UkoChebuko

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good fold, yeah. But do bigger iso raise. What is this? 10 blinds...8 blinds at least...Even if they fold, no problem. Whatever. Sorry, 2l beer...I think you should bet OTT and check fold OTR vs big bet. Your line is little awkward...But OK. You play well. Just bet the turn next time. Big iso raise pre...Bet OTF, OTT...Search for bluff, missed draws OTR...And aggression. Search for sighs. Call or fold...
 
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c0rnBr34d

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That's a really good analysis - thanks for that.
fundiver often has really good analysis. I'd just like to add that iso raising QJs over limpers OOP is indeed a bit light but I wanted to point out that it's at least close. If you do a google search on raising over limpers and find the upswing write up it suggests raising hands down to AJs, KJs, KQo and over limping ATs, KTs, QJs in position. So even in position they suggest over limping here. Being OOP makes it a little worse but I just thought it was worth mentioning that while it's probably a mistake, it wasn't huge mistake. As mentioned the iso sizing is also a bit too small.
I think checking the turn was a larger mistake than the pre flop OOP isolation attempt with QJs. Getting it to heads up and flopping top pair with a Q kicker is among the best results we can hope for here though. Given the less than 1/2 pot turn and river sizings we need to have some read that our opponent is super nitty in order to find a fold, and I don't think we have that since it wasn't mentioned. He could absolutely have a smaller Jx hand and think he has the best hand and be betting for value.
 
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fundiver199

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Given the less than 1/2 pot turn and river sizings we need to have some read that our opponent is super nitty in order to find a fold, and I don't think we have that since it wasn't mentioned. He could absolutely have a smaller Jx hand and think he has the best hand and be betting for value.

Exactly. We need to be good less than 25% of the river, and against a fish at 2NL we almost certainly are, as the hand played out. Fish will often tend to bomb the river, if they have a really big hand like a flush, so flushes are at least somewhat discounted due to his bet sizing. And fish are just bad. They might bet here with T9 or 98, because they dont understand showdown value, or they misread the board and think, they have a straight. You just have to close your eyes and call, and in the long run you will be good often enough :)
 
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