$2 NLHE Full Ring: 89ss on 8d, 7s, 5s board villain shoves UTG

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Casey55

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I tried to attach a hand from another forum, I don't think it worked, Hero had 89ss at 9 handed table

MP: 100 BB
Hero (MP+1): 176 BB
CO: 91.5 BB
BTN: 103 BB
SB: 37 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 116 BB
UTG+1: 100 BB


UTG raises to 4 BB, UTG+1 calls 4 BB, MP calls 3 BB, Hero calls 4 BB, CO calls 4 BB, fold, fold, BB calls 3 BB


Flop: (24.5 BB, 6 players) 8d, 5s, 7s

BB checks, UTG bets 112 BB and is all-in, fold, fold, Hero calls 112 BB, fold, fold

I had a debate with someone on another forum about this hand , I wasn't sure a call was the right play or not I know we need 45% equity to call and we are getting that as long as villain UTG doesnt only play sets like this his stats were vpip:17,pfr:13,Af:2,4

Is the a good call with 2 players behind left to act? what if they call with a straight,2pair or set?


Does Villain with those stats shove overpairs like this ? If I give him only AA-QQ that contain a spade #3combos each, AK,AQ,AJ suited spades and all sets we have 49.65% Equity, would villain with those stats shove with wider ? and what about the players behind us left to act? we have them covered but do they make our choice to call better or worse?
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
The most important decision in this hand is preflop, and its a pretty big mistake to call. 98s is a marginal open from that position, and when someone else has already entered the pot, you need to play tighter. When 3 other players have already entered the pot, you need to play way tighter.

This is something, I feel, a lot of people get wrong. They think, that when other people have called, then they can also call, "because they are getting better odds". Its the exact opposite. More people want to content for the blinds and antes, so they are getting worse odds not better.

There is also a misconception, that suited connectors play well multiway. They do not, so if we are going to play them, we typically need to play them with aggression to thin the field and give ourselfes fold equity. In this spot however 3-betting seem to optimistic, so I would just fold.

Postflop
As if the preflop action in this hand was not fishy enough already with an oversized open and five! callers, now the original raiser simply ships it in on the flop for 4 times the pot. I guess, he is probably doing this with aces or kings, because he does not want to see future cards roll off.

Its obviously a pure math decision now, and its pretty complicated, because we are not closing action, so the hand could go multiway. I dont think, its really worth spending a lot of time analysing it and trying to assign exact ranges to some 2NL goofballs. It is kind of a 1-off hand, which you are unlikely to see again and especially at stakes higher than 2NL. So with a flushdraw, a gutshot AND a pair, I am pressing the call button here, and then it just is, what it is.
 
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Casey55

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yeah thanks for the input diver, this wasnt my hand but I thought it was interesting enough to share. what about the players left to act does them behind us have any influence in our decision to call in this spot? are we worried about them calling with sets or anything?
 
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xrhstos

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The preflop call is fine as long as we understand reverse implied odds and don't overvalue the 6th nut flush draw.
The flop is an outs fiesta and we would be very happy to see a cheap turn but we got denied from that.
We do have a great combo draw and this situation heads up would have been a happy stack off.
But multiway where everyone plays tighter and with two players behind us that can have a better flush draw or a set, I prefer folding the flop and making a note on villain on his 5x pot size overbet on the flop.
 
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fundiver199

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I dont think, the players behind matter all that much. The worst case scenario is, that we go multiway against someone with a better made hand, especially a set, and someone with a better flush draw, because that kills most of our outs. But there will also be times, where it goes multiway against two made hands, and then most of our outs are live, plus we get better pot odds.
 
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63burner

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Would only make the call if I had a large stack..

With so many possible straights, flushes, with the board, I would only call if I had chips to lose. Would be a fun pot/hand to be part of, if I were rolling in a tourney, or was having a good day.
Way too many ways for your opponents to make a better hand.
 
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xrhstos

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I dont think, the players behind matter all that much. The worst case scenario is, that we go multiway against someone with a better made hand, especially a set, and someone with a better flush draw, because that kills most of our outs. But there will also be times, where it goes multiway against two made hands, and then most of our outs are live, plus we get better pot odds.

With the shove overbet and plus our potential call, the players behind us will only stack off with their top of their range.
They will call only with Ax flush draw or a set, lowering our hand's equity to 15-30%, depending on the potential holdings of the villains.
Most of the times they will just not have it and fold, but it's better to avoid gambling in these marginal situations and wait for a better spot.
 
Aballinamion

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Preflop
The most important decision in this hand is preflop, and its a pretty big mistake to call. 98s is a marginal open from that position, and when someone else has already entered the pot, you need to play tighter. When 3 other players have already entered the pot, you need to play way tighter.

This is something, I feel, a lot of people get wrong. They think, that when other people have called, then they can also call, "because they are getting better odds". Its the exact opposite. More people want to content for the blinds and antes, so they are getting worse odds not better.

There is also a misconception, that suited connectors play well multiway. They do not, so if we are going to play them, we typically need to play them with aggression to thin the field and give ourselfes fold equity. In this spot however 3-betting seem to optimistic, so I would just fold.

Postflop
As if the preflop action in this hand was not fishy enough already with an oversized open and five! callers, now the original raiser simply ships it in on the flop for 4 times the pot. I guess, he is probably doing this with aces or kings, because he does not want to see future cards roll off.

Its obviously a pure math decision now, and its pretty complicated, because we are not closing action, so the hand could go multiway. I dont think, its really worth spending a lot of time analysing it and trying to assign exact ranges to some 2NL goofballs. It is kind of a 1-off hand, which you are unlikely to see again and especially at stakes higher than 2NL. So with a flushdraw, a gutshot AND a pair, I am pressing the call button here, and then it just is, what it is.

Hi there Casey55, welcome to the CardsChat community! I hope you enjoy it. Very nice hand indeed, and like our comrade fundiver199 spoke, your biggest mistake is to have called preflop.
I don't play Full-Ring Cash very much, but the ranges are real tight. But even at a 6-max table, after UTG raises and MP calls, I will not call a lot with a bunch of speculative suited connectors, such as T9s, 98s, 97s, 87s, 86s, 76s, etc. Even better Broadway suited connectors we gotta be very sure of why are we calling for, such as JT, QT, QJ, KJ, etc.
I wouldn't comment the postflop action because your major mistake is preflop, but when UTG shoves all-in and you call, you are entering one of the most intense high variance spots in cash games:

A) UTG shoves and only you call: UTG shows JJ+ and you didn't hit your equity, although it is very good versus these kind of hands.

B) UTG shoves and you call, plus another player calls: the other player is dominating your flushes-straights.

It is easy to observe the RIO are immense. But you only made this error because you decided to call preflop to enter a nonsense multi way pot with many players, where, only with the cold stone nuts we could be thinking about calling and even so, we will be destroyed sometimes, for example when you have 88, with gives you the top set in a flop like this.
Very good analysis fundiver199, congratulations!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
TheDude6622

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So you're playing 89s to hit a flop like this. You're thinking pre-flop is that your hand has a lot of equity with so many different ways to draw to a better hand. Once you hit the flop like that, we are playing until the end. Especially when the UTG raised so much pre-flop, they polarized their hand to a pretty big holding. This means your 8 and 9 should be live too. Can't fold.
 
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With an open raise utg i´d put him in a pretty stong range. Something aa or kk id guess. So if thats right we have 16 outs to beat that and already top pair as a bluff catch. For me thats a call.
 
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fundiver199

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With the shove overbet and plus our potential call, the players behind us will only stack off with their top of their range.
They will call only with Ax flush draw or a set, lowering our hand's equity to 15-30%, depending on the potential holdings of the villains.
Most of the times they will just not have it and fold, but it's better to avoid gambling in these marginal situations and wait for a better spot.


If this was the first blind level in a tournament, I would agree. But in cash games there is no such thing as "waiting for a better spot". If calling is +EV, we should call, even though its marginal and high variance. Situations like this is why, we need to have a bankroll, so we can absorb the swings.
 
PaxMundi

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That's what makes it a call imo as were an equity favourite vs all the over pairs it would be nice to get some feed back from one of the coaches on this hand.
 
bgomez89

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Looks fine to me. The preflop call is whatever, I can understand why some would advocate for a fold and I probably fold most of the time too but I don't really mind the call.
 
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