$2 NLHE 6-max: When is good to X river?

freddydr87

freddydr87

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When we think the vilain have more value hand than bluffes and we have the nut,is allwais a 3 barrels situation,so he maight call or not,but when there is some draws that arent complited is beatter to X to get some value from bluffes. But how we can say he is in a draw or a showdonw hand?
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/424sZcVgU
 
GIRFIED

GIRFIED

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Regards.

Regarding how you played the hand, don't I understand why you didn't bet the River? If you constantly do this you are stopping making money.

Now with respect to the opponent, to answer your question, we will assume that the opponent only call the Turn with the color project + stairs project to the Ace, if so it has enough implicits to match your bet because when it is completed the color and you check, and the opponent bet, you are not going to want to throw your hand to believe that it has a bluff.

In general this hand is simple and at this level there are enough bad players that will pay you the bet of the River.
 
greatgame230

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hi first of all very well until the river but how you want to give value to your hand if you are the aggressor and you check the river with a Straight. I understand what you wanted to do, it was a check / raise on the turn but for the previous action this was not going to happen you had to bet a little more than you placed on the turn there the villain would have paid you and you would get more money that way
 
Aballinamion

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Aggression prints money

When we think the vilain have more value hand than bluffes and we have the nut,is allwais a 3 barrels situation,so he maight call or not,but when there is some draws that arent complited is beatter to X to get some value from bluffes. But how we can say he is in a draw or a showdonw hand?
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/424sZcVgU

Hi there freddydr87, what's up? Hope everything is fine. Thank you for the post!
Very well played my friend, congratulations! Respect always GG and GL!
I would like to make a little comment here about aggression. We see many professors, books and videos telling that in poker "if you don't know what to do bet", "aggression prints money", and other similar expressions.
Nonetheless, what most people don't explain is how often we have to be aggressive. In which scenarios we should be aggressive. Otherwise we are not different from those aggro-donkeys, who bet everything and are just clicking buttons.
We gotta play our opponents before playing the cards, and when we see a very aggressive player, why remove its initiave and bluffs by raising it and giving the aggressive player easy +EV fold spots? How often we should be aggressive, it is a question many players should ask themselves before consider a bet, a check or a fold. Not only because of "this" and because of "that" I bet.

Hypothetical BTN calling range:

We are assuming that BTN will 3bet more TT+ KJs+ AQs+, AKo, also it will 3bet from time to time A2s-A5s. BTN will call here, in the top of its range 20% of times or less.
So, the range that the BTN is calling 80% of times is large, but let's consider a decent calling range for the player in the BTN:

99-22, AJs-A2s, KTs-K9s, Q8s+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, AQo-ATo, KTo+, QTo+, JTo, T9o, 98o (22.62% decent calling range)

We know that when it comes a flop, BTN still has 22.62% of its calling range, okay? So, most of times, we are far away better than BTN, in situations where we see UTG's opening range x BTN calling range. So, we know that in situations like this is more likely that UTG will have advantage postflop, because UTG will have all of AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT and the BTN will have none (because it would habe made a 3bet preflop 80% of times or more), because UTG will have all the AK, AQ, and AJ in its range and the BTN also will have none of those. (It would have 3bet preflop either)
It very weak to call AJ from the BTN against UTG, because it will be dominated most of times by AQ and AK and a lot of pocket pairs that are nearly breakeven. It is better for the BTN (in the case it has AJ), to make a 3bet preflop, because AJ is strong, but it needs protection, and will not play good postflop against UTG raises. By 3beting AJ, BTN is representing also AQ and AK, in the case UTG doesn't have it. (UTG will have AQ and AK less than 3%)
Summarizing: when button calls a UTG raise, it will be a very weak and exploitative range.

Flop:

3sQcKs

This is a scenario that, against a weak player, we can do almost anything. Because, as I said before, UTG has in its range (can represent) all the AK, AQ and AJ. Also UTG represents a lot of KK, QQ:

1) If we have AK we have top pair and maybe even more equity in other turns and rivers
2) If we have AQ we have second pair, but we also could have two spades either
3) If we have AJ we have two overcards and a gutshot and maybe two or one spade

I like when we C-bet 1/2 pot out of position here, because we can be immediatly be paid by worse hands (worse aces, kings and queens and draws). Also, by making a 1/2 Pot bet, in the specific given scenario, (3sQcKs), we polarize a litte our heavy value range, and we are trying to represent QQ and KK and AK with TPTK, that would need protection from the straight+flush draw.
Depending on how much this villain is likely to pay me with his flush+straight draws (recreational) I would make a 80%, 100%, even 120% knowing that they are going to chase their gutshots and flushes.
The check could work fine, but it is a little bit less EV because BTN can check-behind his draws and realize its equity for free in the turn or for a very cheap price and many rivers.

Turn is a dream :eek:

In the Turn we complete the nuts, but even with very strong value hands such as AK, KK, QQ and TT (TPTK and Sets of Kings, Queens and Tens), IMO we should keep firing here.
Villain is likely to pay with so many draws (club draw, spade draw, straight gutter, sometimes BTN will pay here with any Qx, Kx, or even Tx that it decided to call, anyways.
I love our bet turn of 100% pot because it is more likely now that the turn had given Villain in the Button more equity for calling down bets (in the perspective of the player in the BTN).
Sometimes even when we overbet this Turn some villains will pay or shove with any club draw, any spade draw, and sometimes with Ace High.
We have all the strong value hands now (When we bet we have 3 sets and 1 straight on our range) and BTN has only bluffs. (more bluffs than values, not be so radical). ;)

WHEN WE ARE DESTROYING :cool:

We are simply crushing BTN's range in this River and now the BTN will have a ton of missed draws that could bluff the river. As we know, button has more bluffs than values in its range right now (Because UTG has all the nuts), so, if UTG triple barrels the River, it will be very easy for the BTN to fold all of its missed draws and weaker hands such as KQ, K3, KT, K8, QT, Q8, and once in a lifetime its sets with 33 and 88. (I do not believe many players would fold two pair or a set here at 2 NLHE, but there are decent players there that could easily fold, yes, we have to respect our adversaries at the tables, until they make their first mistake). :p
Besides all of that, Villain in the Button has all the missed draws with it: any two cards of spades, any two clubs, a lot of Ax suited, Kx suited, etc.
By betting Flop, Turn and checking river, some villains are induced to think that the player out of position (UTG) was bluffing and gave up to the hand, and now, because Villain "is in the BTN and aggression prints money bla, bla bla", because it has a Ace which could block a lot of straights that UTG could be betting in the river, BTN might find a spot for bluffing, either by making a decent bet trying to represent the nuts (when it has more missed draws than values), or even shoving all-in trying to represent sets and the nuts.
Sometimes we can call some shoves from the BTN here very light with a lot of Kx, or even AJ missing with Ace high, because BTN will have huge ammounts of missed draws in this river that could be shoving all in).
The Check-River is very tricky and good,it seems slow play but it is not. Anyways, now, that I saw the showdown, I would not believe that V could pay a triple barrel with a missing flush and ace high. (If you believe BTN could pay you here with Ace high and missed flush draw, you play it wrong :eek::lollypop:) Just kidding, lol.
If you guys think that Villain would call a triple barrel, I respect your ideas and gameplan, you might have a reason for it. My reason is that we only bet when we know we are going to be paid by worse hands. In this case, as the analysis shows, Villain in the BTN had none.
Yes, many players look to checks as weakness and try to explore it right on the spot.
As long as UTG will gain no value from Ace High and Missed Draws in the River, the check is, IMO a most profitable move. By betting or shoving river, we are turning our straight in a bluff, or our straight in a missed draw that also could be betting/shoving river.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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c0rnBr34d

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If you have more than one note on your V that they are super aggro when checked to and like to bluff then maybe you can try to induce some rivers by checking. In general it's far to risky to check back the nuts and hope for bluffs. As you saw this hand. Even when you are correct and they missed the draw, they may still check back with little to no showdown value. Another way to induce without checking is to bet small. Try a 1/4 pot bet sometimes and see if the missed draws raise instead of folding. Some players will call wide with any pair for small sizings. Other players may raise with top pair or a missed draw. And if they fold, that's fine too. They probably weren't going to bet if checked to anyways. In general though, just value bet these rivers and hope they can call or raise. You should have some reads before you deviate from the standard line to try to exploit Vs tendencies to bet missed draws or bluff. If they are a station the exploit will be the opposite to size up or overbet.
 
WVHillbilly

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The rive here really depends on image. What do we know about the villain and what does he know about us?

I like the check to induce a lot if we know he'll bluff or go for thin value with his TP hands. I also like checking if we have recently shown we can fold to a river bet after betting flop and turn.

Obviously if we know he's a station who will call with all his one pair hands a bet is mandatory. In the absence of any info, I think betting and assuming he's a station is the best default way of thinking.
 
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