$2 NLHE 6-max: Very passive line with TPBK vs UTG

B

braveslice

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I don't know how to play this. Hero should bet turn for value/protection? Hero should bet river when failed to bet turn? Wrong cards to flat? But surely hero would flat KJs, and hero would be wondering what the do similarly.

PokerStars - $0.02 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BTN): 113 BB
SB: 78.5 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 4)
BB: 342 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: -, Hands: 2)
UTG: 101.5 BB (VPIP: 0.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 2)
MP: 126.5 BB (VPIP: 24.10, PFR: 19.51, 3Bet Preflop: 3.57, Hands: 87)
CO: 79 BB (VPIP: 33.33, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 12)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T:heart: K:heart:

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 3 BB, fold, fold

Flop: (7.5 BB, 2 players) K:diamond: 3:club: 4:club:
UTG bets 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB

Turn: (15.5 BB, 2 players) Q:club:
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: (15.5 BB, 2 players) 6:heart:
UTG checks, Hero checks
 
Alucard

Alucard

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I'd v bet river
The rest looks fine for me
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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I'd rather v-bet the turn and then check back the river for a free showdown than the other way around. You can be floating him or semi-bluffing clubs when you bet the turn, but when you check it back you always have showdown value.
 
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Sidetracked

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It looks like the kind of hand where 2 streets is good. How you get that is player dependent.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

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2 streets is the right approach. I'd prefer to get them on flop/turn to equity deny random clubs.

I'd bet turn about 40% pot (and fold to a big check raise). Then I'd check back river.

As played I think you can bet river but we can't target a K (cuz they will generally beat us) so we have to target AQ/QJ or JJ so I think I'd bet 30% pot on river. Unless you have stats that tell you he raises blocker bets with air. I don't find I run into many of those players who have that mode at the micros so I just probably bet 5bb and fold to a check raise on river. My guess is he has JJ-99.
 
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Sorin Iliescu

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i'd value bet another on the river most probably; but as mentioned above, betting the turn seems better
 
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mikeisthebestever

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I think because you dont hold a club, betting the flop to deny some equity to draws would be wise in the long run. Once it gets checked to you on the turn I would probably go for thin value with the intention of folding to a check raise on the river.
 
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braveslice

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Thx!
1. So everyone agrees this is 2 streets.

2. Do we bet turn or river? I would say, given the answers that betting turn is the way to go. I have been doing it ever since (betting turn). It’s seems to work nicely. People are giving second guesses and calling, even tighter players those who would not always call river. Getting free river and on top of that having easy exit plan on aggression makes it worth it. I still not understand wholly why betting turn is better move. As pointed out if we are facing special player, we might instead opt to river bet (or maybe call?).

3. If we leave it to the river, as we can also do especially given the limit, missjacki’s point of using smaller bet size (bc targeting weaker hands) seems to be the right way.

Villain had AQo
 
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Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

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I still not understand wholly why betting turn is better move.

a few reasons why turn bet is better, IMO


1) Equity denial. every hand has some equity against you. you give them unlimited pot odds by giving them a free card. even AQ which you are in fine shape against has 5 outs so about 10% equity to beat you on river. This isn't always a big deal for instance if you think checking now will allow you to make a bigger value bet later, but I don't think that is the case right now. our hand is on the strong side of marginal so we're only hoping to get called by draws and marginal hands. In other words he is unlikely to have a hand strong enough to call a big bet later that we are ALSO beating. so betting now is better.


2) the presence of draws makes your opponent more likely to call with a wider range because he is beating more (he's beating your draws if he imagines you might have them) or he has a draw himself that he will NEVER call a river bet with if he misses.


3). Bigger value sizing can be made on turn. For example he might call a 50% pot bet on turn with AQ but might only call a 30% pot bet on river. Or he might call a 40% pot bet on turn with QJ and call nothing on river. So this means if you're only getting 1 street of value (turn or river) you can value bet bigger on turn and still get called by more that you are beating.


4). Allow opponents to make mistakes. By betting and offering bad odds to any draws you force them to make a decision and generally, to make a mistake or relinquesh their equity....both are technically good for you though of course we'd rather they call with a draw and miss....technically if they call with a draw and hit but they paid the wrong price then we still win in the long run. The other category of mistakes that is rampant in the micros is the "hopeful" or "optimistic" calls you will get when there are still cards to come. They might have a vague sense that they are behind but lack the discipline to fold because they could still improve. "Wouldn't it be exciting to hit trips or 2 pair and win a really big pot?" we look at this and know it's bad, but to a lot of micro players this optimism is more enticing than making correct folds. Players in the micros make generally looser calls on flop and turn because they're just basically curious how strong of a hand they can make.


5). Build fear equity and just generally make yourself tougher to play against. Players want to get to rivers, especially when they don't have the betting lead. They want to realize the full equity of their hand and then make their final decision when they have all the information. Good players, bad players, recreational players all have this in common even if bad players can't articulate why, they still would rather make it to the river in every hand they play. I know if I'm at a table with a player who doesn't apply much pressure and lets me see a ton of turns and rivers for cheap, I'm more likely to play a ton of pots with this person and attack their blinds and raises relentlessly because they just aren't a tough opponent. The inverse is true of players who are constantly putting me in tough spots....I'll let a lot of marginal value spots go because I know I'm gonna face bigger bets later. This is good for them as I essentially just hand them all my equity every time I fold out of the threat of future aggression. notice this simple THREAT of aggression doesn't actually cost my opponent any chips. It's fear equity that is built up over time and you can cash in on it without putting a chip in the pot.
 
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Ahoy

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I would bet the turn most of the times and then porbalby checked the river, or vice versa. But since there are 3 spades I would most likely bet the turn.
 
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