$2 NLHE 6-max: Unsure if I should jam flop for value here

K

KFlint

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Hi,

No read on villains, seems like both were bluffing on the flop but leads me to wonders if I should jam flop or not when there is a flush draw or connected cards on the board. Perhaps if I just call the raise they try to bluff me on the turn so I lose value. Thx for the help!


Stacks:
UTG - UTG ($2.46)
MP - MP ($2.06)
CO - Hero ($2.78)
BTN - BTN ($2.01)
SB - SB ($8.52)
BB - BB ($2.27)

Preflop: ($0.03, 6 players) Hero is CO with 6:diamond: 6:club:
2 folds, Hero raises to $0.06, 1 fold, SB raises to $0.18, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.12

Flop: 6:heart: 7:club: 3:club: ($0.38, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.20, SB raises to $0.50, Hero raises to $2.60 (all-in), 1 fold, Uncalled bet of $2.10 returned to Hero

Total Pot: $1.38

Hero wins $1.33


===========================================

Stacks:
UTG - UTG ($2.46)
MP - MP ($1.97)
CO - CO ($0.85)
BTN - BTN ($1.99)
SB - SB ($16.30)
BB - Hero ($2.18)

Preflop: ($0.03, 6 players) Hero is BB with J:spade: J:diamond:
4 folds, SB raises to $0.06, Hero raises to $0.18, SB calls $0.12

Flop: 4:spade: 3:spade: J:heart: ($0.36, 2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.18, SB raises to $0.46, Hero raises to $1.41, 1 fold, Uncalled bet of $0.95 returned to Hero

Total Pot: $1.28

Hero wins $1.24
 
T

teambuilder

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Hand 1: I normally fold to 3b with low pairs unless we are deeper, like 170bb+. As played, flop play is good.

Hand 2: Nice hand.

Play sets fast except if flop is very dry.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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You're blowing people off their hands.

Both spots you have position, and you have way the best hand.


I flat in both spots, proceed to turn.
 
K

KFlint

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You're blowing people off their hands.

Both spots you have position, and you have way the best hand.


I flat in both spots, proceed to turn.

This is what I thought afterwards, but how do you react if he leads the turn with the flush completing (assuming we aren't very deep at the start) , auto-shove? Can't see myself folding at this point.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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This is what I thought afterwards, but how do you react if he leads the turn with the flush completing (assuming we aren't very deep at the start) , auto-shove? Can't see myself folding at this point.

You call. You keep his bluffs in there by not raising, and letting him think he has some chance of winning hand. Stop worrying about FD so much.

If they bet turn, and follow through with a big bet on the river, then I might worry he has flush.


The function of raising forces him to have a good hand to continue. Calling his C/R allows him to make a bluff, and not know what you have (he might think you have a FD), and continue to hang himself.
 
K

KFlint

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You call. You keep his bluffs in there by not raising, and letting him think he has some chance of winning hand. Stop worrying about FD so much.

If they bet turn, and follow through with a big bet on the river, then I might worry he has flush.


The function of raising forces him to have a good hand to continue. Calling his C/R allows him to make a bluff, and not know what you have (he might think you have a FD), and continue to hang himself.

Thanks, very interesting! We so often read to never slow play of set on a wet board that I just accepted that it was the normal play. And I started thinking I miss a ton of value.

I'm guessing that a wet board and multiway would make you play it faster though?
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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Thanks, very interesting! We so often read to never slow play of set on a wet board that I just accepted that it was the normal play. And I started thinking I miss a ton of value.

I'm guessing that a wet board and multiway would make you play it faster though?


As I continue to learn things about poker, I am seeing more and more that each situation is dynamic. I don't really think saying "don't slow play sets" or whether to play them fast or not. Many times, I will find myself taking what I feel is the correct line against the V.

6-7-8 with a FD, we have 8-8. If I think the guy has air, or he will fold to a raise, I will just call. But if I think he has a hand he will give action with, like 5-6, 5-7, 2p, hopefully not a straight, but yeah you get the point, then I raise and just get it in (opponent dependant).

That's just a random example. Alot of times when we raise our huge hands, our opponents just don't have anything, and they fold. But when we just flat on a wet board, or even dry board with FD, they really have no idea what we have. They may continue barreling, in hopes we fold, and we get more chips where there shouldn't be any chips to get.


The tough part is recognizing in real time when to raise and when to flat.


The more you play, the easier it becomes to read hands.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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Forgot to add:

When we raise our opponents are obv gonna he thinking "what would he 3b us with here? He has to have a set! I fold!"


We don't want to make it that easy for them.
 
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KFlint

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Very enlightening, thank you! I'll keep that in mind.
 
John A

John A

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Both hands are fine. You could make an argument for calling in hand 2 and then shoving the turn because it's not very connected. But at these stakes, shoving after the flop CR is fine.

Hand 1 is standard as it's a low connected flop where opponents at these stakes will expect people to felt w/ over pairs (and will often felt themselves). You want to 3-bet the flop and GIAI in order to maximize hands that might be out run on the turn/river.
 
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QA77

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Because of the draws, I think its fine to play like you did. On a rainbow board, it makes less sense to have bluffs so you don't always want to play them aggressively.
 
Beanfacekilla

Beanfacekilla

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Both hands are fine. You could make an argument for calling in hand 2 and then shoving the turn because it's not very connected. But at these stakes, shoving after the flop CR is fine.

Hand 1 is standard as it's a low connected flop where opponents at these stakes will expect people to felt w/ over pairs (and will often felt themselves). You want to 3-bet the flop and GIAI in order to maximize hands that might be out run on the turn/river.


Listen to this guy OP! He makes me rethink things all the time. I like what you had to say John.
 
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KFlint

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Interesting discussion, thanks all! I will keep all that in mind, it is indeed very stake dependent. People might be making calling mistake to a shove more frequently at low stakes.
 
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braveslice

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Not directly related to these hands, but many 2NL players consider shove as the ultimate value line, so if you can just raise it's called more easily. Many players don't realize the fact that shoving is logical because of stack depths, but only consider the action ie AI. And having strong action based hand reading skill is quite logical given how unpredictable ranges can quite often be.
 
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JKo2theQQ

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I mostly agree with the other posts that you were a little.......BOOM TAKE THAT......
Hand 1: This one isn't as bad the the second hand but I definitely think you should have let the turn come out. Villain started by 3betting preflop knowing he will be OOP. We assume he may be stealing or actually has a hand. On the flop he checks so we throw out a reasonable bet. When he check/raises we should be loving it. His actions are screaming big pair AA-99. Although there is a flush draw on the flop, his actions don't really fit with a draw. He likely checks and then calls when he's drawing. He has been aggressive preflop and again on the flop. I think big pairs are the most likely hand so there is very little risk in allowing him to see the turn. Moving all in says that you have absolutely zero fear of the aggression he has shown. Just calling his raise (after waiting to act like your considering it) will pretty much force him to lead out on the turn. whether he is bluffing or actually has a big hand he has to continue with the aggressive line. Then you could raise and move all in. Worst case is he checks and folds to a turn bet.
Hand 2: I think this one was a bit worse. Since he raises and then calls a 3bet, he definitely wasn't stealing and he likes his hand. This situation is pretty much like the other one. However, since this is blind vs blind, I think the check raise is more about value. Seems more like he was afraid you would fold to a bet and he would get no value. That makes me think he would be more likely to lead on the turn than in the other hand. Again, I think waiting until he leads the turn before you drop the hammer on him would be much better. Also, in a SB vs BB spot, it might not be terrible to take this hand all the way to the river trying to extract the most value.
Overall, you were likely miles ahead and had both opponents crushed. I think you left some value out there. Good Luck
 
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