$2 NLHE 6-max: TT, are we value betting too thin here?

[Casey55]

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $2.26 (113 bb)
MP: $3.98 (199 bb)
CO (Hero): $3.97 (199 bb)
BU: $1.79 (90 bb)
SB: $1.16 (58 bb)
BB: $1.00 (50 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is CO with T♦ T♥
2 players fold, Hero raises to $0.06, BTN calls $0.06, 1 fold, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.19) 4♠ 8♣ 3♠ (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.12, BU folds, BB calls $0.12

Turn: ($0.43) A♦ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.16, BB calls $0.16

River: ($0.75) J♣ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

3-way pot I think this flop is good for BB's range but I have an over-pair so I C-bet 2/3 pot.
I think I can get called by all sorts of stuff here, any pair, plenty of draws. BB calls. Turn is an Ad. I think the ace should be better for my range, I am thinking that some of villains hands that called on the flop can certainly contain an ace. A4,A3,A8, possibly even A5 or A2 for gut-shots. I decide to bet on this card and bet small to target villains weaker range of hands like his 8x,4x, middling PP's like 55-77's and his FD's, gut-shots etc. I bet slightly over 1/3.

Villain calls the turn and the river is Jc, another over-card to my Tens. Villain checks again and I don't believe we can bet here because it is somewhat likely he can have Ax here, the draws are broken, middling PP's I doubt are calling 3 streets here.. He could also be slow playing or rivered a sporadic two pair like J8. What do you think about how the hand was played here? was the turn too thin?

 

[fundiver199]

I think, this was played completely fine. The main point is the one, you made already. We bet the turn to charge all his draws, and already at this point our plan is to check back the river, because its to difficult to get 3 streets from a worse hand, especially if the river is another overcard or complete draws. My only suggestion would be to size slightly bigger on the turn. He is not going to fold a draw or an 8, just because you make it 25c rather than 15c.

 

[Hermus]

I think this spot is marginal enough to let the turn bet be dependent on villain's tendencies. If (s)he's over-calling/over-folding the turn this is probably a profitable bet.

Against a balanced opponent, I think checking back the turn and check/calling the river is a slightly better play. The reason being that you're still playing a wide range from the CO and your unpaired Kx, Qx, Jx (and the occasional suited connector) are all better bluff candidates than the medium pocket pairs. Playing in position you can maybe get more value from hands you beat by checking back the turn as it gives villain another chance to bluff, but that again depends on villain's tendencies.

 

[fundiver199]

and your unpaired Kx, Qx, Jx (and the occasional suited connector) are all better bluff candidates than the medium pocket pairs.

The turn bet is not a bluff. For a bet to be a bluff, it needs to get better hands to fold. A better hand on this board is AX, and nobody in their right mind would call on the flop with A high and then fold on the turn, when they just hit their card and improved to top pair. So Hero is not bluffing here. He is betting for thin value and to deny equity to worse hands, that fold.

 

[Hermus]

The turn bet is not a bluff. For a bet to be a bluff, it needs to get better hands to fold. A better hand on this board is AX, and nobody in their right mind would call on the flop with A high and then fold on the turn, when they just hit their card and improved to top pair. So Hero is not bluffing here. He is betting for thin value and to deny equity to worse hands, that fold.

Alright, that is fair enough. What I didn't say in my post but what was part of my thinking process is that in my opinion against a thinking player TT should not be a thin value bet (if you bet TT for value and want to balance that range with bluffs you end up betting close to 100% of your range). The rest of my post explained why it isn't a good bluff combo either so in my opinion, there is no upside to betting the turn.

Not to say that it's never correct. Like I said, against the right player betting the turn for thin value is probably profitable, but against that player type you're probably looking to play a merged range anyway.

 

[fundiver199]

Alright, that is fair enough. What I didn't say in my post but what was part of my thinking process is that in my opinion against a thinking player TT should not be a thin value bet (if you bet TT for value and want to balance that range with bluffs you end up betting close to 100% of your range). The rest of my post explained why it isn't a good bluff combo either so in my opinion, there is no upside to betting the turn.

I actually think, its completely fine to fire again with nearly 100% of our range on this turn card, since its way better for our range than the opponents. Its the perfect "scare card", which we are likely bluffing on a lot, and then its fine to also bet thin for value. With that being said checking back with intention of using our hand as a bluff-catcher on the river is also an ok line.

Its largely a matter of personal style and opponent type. If the opponent will bluff the river with all his busted draws, after we check back turn, and maybe even value own himself with worse, that can be a fine line. But most people playing 2NL with half a starting stack are beginners, and most beginners tend to make far more calling mistakes than betting mistakes.

Also TT is not the greatest bluff catcher on this board. On the specific river we would have to deal with yet another overcard, and it would suck quite a bit to pay off a hand like J9 of spades, which just got there and now goes for thin value. So personally I would rather use a hand like A5 as a bluffcatcher, because its less likely to get drawn out on.