$2 NLHE 6-max: Trips top kicker on a dry board against deep stack - pot control?

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Kaleiduo

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This was on zoom and didn't have any other read on villain. My question is more theoretical than anything, is this just a case of having way overvalued my trips? Against a deep stack does it make sense to get it in earlier? Is my river push something that I should be avoiding or can I just chalk this up as a bad beat?



pokerstars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG (Hero): $2.46 (123 bb)
MP: $4.63 (232 bb)
CO: $2.00 (100 bb)
BU: $8.77 (439 bb)
SB: $3.94 (197 bb)
BB: $0.73 (37 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is UTG with 8 A
Hero raises to $0.06, 2 players fold, BTN calls $0.06, SB calls $0.05, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.24) 8 3 8 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.14, BTN calls $0.14, 2 players fold

Turn: ($0.52) J (2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, BTN calls $0.50

River: ($1.52) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.76 (all-in), BTN calls $1.76

Total pot: $5.04 (Rake: $0.18)

Showdown:
UTG (Hero) shows 8 A (three of a kind, Eights)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 70%, Flop: 76%, Turn: 86%, River: 0%)

BU shows 5 8 (a full house, Eights full of Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 30%, Flop: 24%, Turn: 14%, River: 100%)

BU wins $4.86
 
Collin Moshman

Collin Moshman

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This is definitely just a cooler; don't check for pot control since you want to get stacks in with such a strong hand. There are very few hands that beat you in the button's range for calling pre-flop, flop and turn. Just a small number of combos of 33, J8s, and 85s.

So don't worry, you lost this pot, but there was nothing you can do to prevent going broke at the river.

As a side note, I would consider folding A8o UTG 6-max.
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
A8o is a very marginal open with 5 players left to act behind. I would normally open A8s, but A8o would go in the muck.

Flop
Perfect flop, perfect C-bet size.

Turn
With this sizing you are setting it up to try and stack someone, when you coolered them with a better kicker. This can be an ok approach at 2NL, because a lot of players are not able to fold trips or better. In games with better opponents however I would tend to prefer a smaller bet to get value from a somewhat wider range of hands.

River
You made the plan on the turn, so jamming is indeed the right play here. Just unfortunate that he hit his kicker on the river. But I do think, this is still a valid line, since I dont think, he is folding a hand like 86 or 87 either.
 
elizeuof

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Well, It's a difficulty hand, I think the majority of the players will lose as happened with you...

So, the A8o are not a hand to play from the UTG, I know that sometimes you will win, but in a long time you tend to stay at a loss. I will consider to play this hands in the final position, sometimes trying do defend the blinds, or in late stage of tournament games, we need to choose better the hands to play on cashgame, cause we have not preoccupation with the antes, the fact that it appeared 88 on the flop are no important enough to say that this are a great hand for play in these position.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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This was on zoom and didn't have any other read on villain. My question is more theoretical than anything, is this just a case of having way overvalued my trips? Against a deep stack does it make sense to get it in earlier? Is my river push something that I should be avoiding or can I just chalk this up as a bad beat?



PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG (Hero): $2.46 (123 bb)
MP: $4.63 (232 bb)
CO: $2.00 (100 bb)
BU: $8.77 (439 bb)
SB: $3.94 (197 bb)
BB: $0.73 (37 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is UTG with 8 A
Hero raises to $0.06, 2 players fold, BTN calls $0.06, SB calls $0.05, BB calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.24) 8 3 8 (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.14, BTN calls $0.14, 2 players fold

Turn: ($0.52) J (2 players)
Hero bets $0.50, BTN calls $0.50

River: ($1.52) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $1.76 (all-in), BTN calls $1.76

Total pot: $5.04 (Rake: $0.18)

Showdown:
UTG (Hero) shows 8 A (three of a kind, Eights)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 70%, Flop: 76%, Turn: 86%, River: 0%)

BU shows 5 8 (a full house, Eights full of Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 30%, Flop: 24%, Turn: 14%, River: 100%)

BU wins $4.86

I don't love opening A8o and similar weak 'ish' combos from UTG for many reasons. At 2 NLHE it is simply not profitable. As we can see, we got 3 callers, which most of times is going to make our hands suck, even when we do own AA, KK and that kind of stuff.
OTR, we should be checking down way more often than betting. THIS WAS NEVER A COOLER.

I have to bitch about it, when I see tournament players giving their optimal opinions about cash game, but they don't play cash games! They should stay quiet about this subject, because Cash isn't MTT, SNG or whatever.

A cooler is a situation where we have no other options left and our hand is too much strong to be folding: on this hand, we had the option to be checking out of position, either OTT or OTR.

Jamming such a strong hand OTR means that you are turning a precious juicy trips into a horrible bluff. I am more inclined of jamming the river with hands that missed, i.e, our missed/busted draws.

When we jam OTR we give the best options for our opponent: if our opponent doesn't have it, easy fold for him/her, and if our opponent has us, easy call. So, what is the point of shoving the river? What is the point of turning a very strong value hand into a bluff?

I have to vent man, there aren't too many cash players around. And Cash isn't MTT, I will repeat it forever. I know nothing about MTT so I do not open my mouth to say things I don't know.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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This is definitely just a cooler; don't check for pot control since you want to get stacks in with such a strong hand. There are very few hands that beat you in the button's range for calling pre-flop, flop and turn. Just a small number of combos of 33, J8s, and 85s.

So don't worry, you lost this pot, but there was nothing you can do to prevent going broke at the river.

As a side note, I would consider folding A8o UTG 6-max.

Are you really sure about it, mate? I have serious doubts about this hands, but I do not want to be impolite.
I am just a fish and you are the professional. Better for me to stay quiet.
Do you play Cash Games? I see you teaching MTTs and SNGs but I never saw a video of you talking about cash, so I don't know if you really play it.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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fundiver199

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When we jam OTR we give the best options for our opponent: if our opponent doesn't have it, easy fold for him/her, and if our opponent has us, easy call. So, what is the point of shoving the river? What is the point of turning a very strong value hand into a bluff?

As I already said, at a higher limit like 10NL or 25NL I would be inclined to go for a more normal bet sizing to get 3 streets of value out of hands like AJ or KJ, that might have floated the flop and improved to top pair. But if hero get raised, he pretty much has to pay it off, so in that sence this was just a cooler. There were no straight or flush possibilities on the board, and as far as boats go, the only reasonable one for Villain to show up given the previous action was 33. He did in fact have 85s, but there is only 1 combo of that hand and 1 combo of J8s, so we are still only looking at very few combos of boats. I am discounting 55 and JJ, because I think, 55 fold on the turn if not the flop multiway, and JJ usually 3-bet preflop at 6-max.
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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As I already said, at a higher limit like 10NL or 25NL I would be inclined to go for a more normal bet sizing to get 3 streets of value out of hands like AJ or KJ, that might have floated the flop and improved to top pair. But if hero get raised, he pretty much has to pay it off, so in that sence this was just a cooler. There were no straight or flush possibilities on the board, and as far as boats go, the only reasonable one for Villain to show up given the previous action was 33. He did in fact have 85s, but there is only 1 combo of that hand and 1 combo of J8s, so we are still only looking at very few combos of boats. I am discounting 55 and JJ, because I think, 55 fold on the turn if not the flop multiway, and JJ usually 3-bet preflop at 6-max.

Hero got raised? Where? I can't see it: Hero bets flop, turn and jams river, which hands Hero expect to pay in such a dry configuration, that's my point mate.
I am only arguing about the river shove, nothing else. But, even so thanks for your effort and the input. :D

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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Kaleiduo

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I appreciate all the comments so far, they have been enlightening!

My thinking with the river shove is that at these lower stakes it's typical to get called by worse hands so better to get full value. I think that's my trouble with zoom, as the players here are typically better or I just don't have enough information on them to be able to exploit them the way that I like to at standard tables. Still crazy to me that villain would call with 85s! I can't imagine that paying off in the long run.
 
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fundiver199

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A cooler is a situation where we have no other options left and our hand is too much strong to be folding: on this hand, we had the option to be checking out of position, either OTT or OTR.

Checking would be absolutely insane, when we lose to so few combos and can get 3 streets of value from a lot of worse hands. If this is not a 3 street hand, then I dont know, what is? This time you are the one being results oriented. Villain hit a 3-outer on the river, which was just plain unlucky for Hero. The only thing, which can be up for debate here, is Heros betsizing.

Jamming such a strong hand OTR means that you are turning a precious juicy trips into a horrible bluff. I am more inclined of jamming the river with hands that missed, i.e, our missed/busted draws.

Which better hand is going to fold to Heros line? The baby boat with 33? This will never happen neither at 2NL or for that matter in any other cashgame. So no Hero is not turning his hand into a bluff. His betzing might not be optimal for games with good opponents, but its certainly still a +EV play. And do you really think, someone is folding trips at 2NL? Its 1,76$ to call, its the price of nothing, so nobody cares.
 
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