$2 NLHE 6-max: Thoughts on these "isolation" bets/raises in 4-bet multiway pot

J

JackOscar

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$2 NLHE 6-max: Thoughts on these "isolation" bets/raises in 4-bet multiway pot

Pre-flop maybe should've been a call and not a 4-bet since the suitedness gives some good play-ability post flop multiways, but because the sizing of his 3-bet was so small I think MP probably called pretty wide to come along (relatively) cheaply just to see a flop multiway with his marginal bad drawing limping hands. The broken short stack is probably raising really wide here and is just in general no doubt bad so I'm pretty much raising as a bluff against MP and value against the BB hoping to isolate him. One bad thing of course is that MP is acting after the BB.

On the flop after they both check the absolute bone dry flop my goal with the bet is pretty much the same thing, go for value (or realize equity rather) against the BB and try to fold out MP who will have a very tough time calling here on this board. BB is already pot committed of course and calling with his entire range so folding out the other player and stacking off against BB is the best possible scenario, which is what happened.

And of course BB reveals a hand that is absolutely dominated by ours but happened to flop top pair with the random 9, but hey, that's poker.

What do you think about this play?

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

BennettJ1999 (UTG): $2.01 (101 bb)
Mrstrouble81 (MP): $2.32 (116 bb)
JackOscar95 (CO): $2.42 (121 bb)
kalian00023 (BU): $2.16 (108 bb)
SilverHoup (SB): $0.43 (22 bb)
GoodMan888 (BB): $0.58 (29 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (JackOscar95) is CO with A J
1 fold, Mrstrouble81 (MP) calls $0.02, JackOscar95 (CO) raises to $0.08, 2 players fold, GoodMan888 (BB) 3-bets to $0.14, Mrstrouble81 (MP) calls $0.12, JackOscar95 (CO) 4-bets to $0.44, GoodMan888 (BB) calls $0.30, Mrstrouble81 (MP) calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.33) 5 6 9 (3 players)
GoodMan888 (BB) checks, Mrstrouble81 (MP) checks, JackOscar95 (CO) bets $0.66, GoodMan888 (BB) calls $0.14 (all-in), Mrstrouble81 (MP) folds

Turn: ($1.61) T (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($1.61) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $1.61 (Rake: $0.10)

Showdown:
JackOscar95 (CO) shows A J (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 66%, Flop: 26%, Turn: 14%, River: 0%)

GoodMan888 (BB) shows 9 K (a pair of Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 34%, Flop: 74%, Turn: 86%, River: 100%)

GoodMan888 (BB) wins $1.51
 
S

Sidetracked

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4 betting to get full stacked Mrstroubles out of the pot and heads up with the short stack fish is good.

Then the money goes in on any flop, and he sucks out. Bummer, but I think your play is fine.
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
I think, this is a little dependent on which read, you had on BB. If he is as bad, as his stack size and 3-bet sizing indicate, I am totally fine stacking off AJs for 29BB preflop against him. So my only slight nit-pick is going to be your sizing. I would go to 58c exactly to move him all in. This would also give MP a worse price to come along for the ride, which I am not overly thrilled about him doing.

Flop
I would check behind. You are bluffing into a dry side pot, which is typically not a very profitable thing. Sure you pushed MP out of the pot, but to no avail, since you still lost against BB at showdown.
 
J

JackOscar

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Preflop
I think, this is a little dependent on which read, you had on BB. If he is as bad, as his stack size and 3-bet sizing indicate, I am totally fine stacking off AJs for 29BB preflop against him. So my only slight nit-pick is going to be your sizing. I would go to 58c exactly to move him all in. This would also give MP a worse price to come along for the ride, which I am not overly thrilled about him doing.

Flop
I would check behind. You are bluffing into a dry side pot, which is typically not a very profitable thing. Sure you pushed MP out of the pot, but to no avail, since you still lost against BB at showdown.
Hey, on pre-flop that was actually my plan but I messed up (you can see how I mistakenly raised *to* 0.44 instead of calling the bet and raising 0.44 (the short stacks remaining stack) on top of that to push him all in.

OTF:
Sure, it goes against the gentlemen's agreement to not bet when there's a side pot, but how can you say this bet was to "no avail". It accomplished exactly what I wanted, in fact the outcome was the best possible scenario (apart from the cards). The fact that there is another player in the pot should increase my fold equity against the bigger stack dramatically, inflating the pot with a side pot is bad for both us certainly but I put him in a position here where calling is awful. It's a bit like a game of chicken, don't you think?
 
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fundiver199

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Sure, it goes against the gentlemen's agreement to not bet when there's a side pot, but how can you say this bet was to "no avail". It accomplished exactly what I wanted, in fact the outcome was the best possible scenario (apart from the cards). The fact that there is another player in the pot should increase my fold equity against the bigger stack dramatically, inflating the pot with a side pot is bad for both us certainly but I put him in a position here where calling is awful. It's a bit like a game of chicken, don't you think?

The problem is, there was not even a side pot, when you bet, or some call it a dry side pot. So you did not win anything at all. You only denied some equity, and because there was another player in the pot, most of that equity went to him. Let us assume for instance, that you got QsTc to fold. Had it been heads up, then your equity share would have been 76,5%, and by betting and getting QsTc to fold, you would increase that to 100%.

However because Kh9h was also in the pot, your equity share was only 24%, and after QsTc folded, it only rose very marginally to 25%. What happened instead was, that the equity of Kh9h rose from 54% to 74%, so you basically risked your money to protect his hand. Now admittedly this math would look somewhat better, if the short stacked player has missed, and you were actually ahead. But against a whole range your equity gain of getting someone to fold will always be less, when there are other players in the pot.
 
puzzlefish

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Pre-flop I am not really happy with the action while holding AJs. I don't think it is worth inflating the pot and there are way better spots to pick for this kind of action in NL2 6-max. I think over the long run you will lose more money than you will make in this kind of spot.

BB is pretty much pot committed on the flop and he is coming along no matter what. AJs missed. All you are doing with your bet is improving the short stack's odds of winning the pot.
 
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JackOscar

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The problem is, there was not even a side pot, when you bet, or some call it a dry side pot. So you did not win anything at all. You only denied some equity, and because there was another player in the pot, most of that equity went to him. Let us assume for instance, that you got QsTc to fold. Had it been heads up, then your equity share would have been 76,5%, and by betting and getting QsTc to fold, you would increase that to 100%.

However because Kh9h was also in the pot, your equity share was only 24%, and after QsTc folded, it only rose very marginally to 25%. What happened instead was, that the equity of Kh9h rose from 54% to 74%, so you basically risked your money to protect his hand. Now admittedly this math would look somewhat better, if the short stacked player has missed, and you were actually ahead. But against a whole range your equity gain of getting someone to fold will always be less, when there are other players in the pot.

Ok, well you admit it yourself you are picking the worst possible scenario where I am dominating MP and BB is dominating me, more likely is the opposite. What if MP has AK and BB had KJ instead? Now my equity just went from 13.56% to 85.86% and I think those hands are just as realistic and probably more so. Could you call as MP with AQ,AK here? How can you with the BB there? The situation is awful for you, probably only QQ+ would call.

What does it matter for me how happy BB is with how the hand plays out? I want to maximize my own EV, not his. If that means he gets to share the equity denial of MP with me then so be it.

And should mention that I didn't mean the side pot (or dry side pot) benefited me, just that I denied equity like you said but I do believe denying that equity was a good play.
 
Last edited:
Aballinamion

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Pre-flop maybe should've been a call and not a 4-bet since the suitedness gives some good play-ability post flop multiways, but because the sizing of his 3-bet was so small I think MP probably called pretty wide to come along (relatively) cheaply just to see a flop multiway with his marginal bad drawing limping hands. The broken short stack is probably raising really wide here and is just in general no doubt bad so I'm pretty much raising as a bluff against MP and value against the BB hoping to isolate him. One bad thing of course is that MP is acting after the BB.

On the flop after they both check the absolute bone dry flop my goal with the bet is pretty much the same thing, go for value (or realize equity rather) against the BB and try to fold out MP who will have a very tough time calling here on this board. BB is already pot committed of course and calling with his entire range so folding out the other player and stacking off against BB is the best possible scenario, which is what happened.

And of course BB reveals a hand that is absolutely dominated by ours but happened to flop top pair with the random 9, but hey, that's poker.

What do you think about this play?

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

BennettJ1999 (UTG): $2.01 (101 bb)
Mrstrouble81 (MP): $2.32 (116 bb)
JackOscar95 (CO): $2.42 (121 bb)
kalian00023 (BU): $2.16 (108 bb)
SilverHoup (SB): $0.43 (22 bb)
GoodMan888 (BB): $0.58 (29 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (JackOscar95) is CO with A J
1 fold, Mrstrouble81 (MP) calls $0.02, JackOscar95 (CO) raises to $0.08, 2 players fold, GoodMan888 (BB) 3-bets to $0.14, Mrstrouble81 (MP) calls $0.12, JackOscar95 (CO) 4-bets to $0.44, GoodMan888 (BB) calls $0.30, Mrstrouble81 (MP) calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.33) 5 6 9 (3 players)
GoodMan888 (BB) checks, Mrstrouble81 (MP) checks, JackOscar95 (CO) bets $0.66, GoodMan888 (BB) calls $0.14 (all-in), Mrstrouble81 (MP) folds

Turn: ($1.61) T (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($1.61) 2 (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $1.61 (Rake: $0.10)

Showdown:
JackOscar95 (CO) shows A J (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 66%, Flop: 26%, Turn: 14%, River: 0%)

GoodMan888 (BB) shows 9 K (a pair of Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 34%, Flop: 74%, Turn: 86%, River: 100%)

GoodMan888 (BB) wins $1.51

Standard, the opponent had barely 20 blinds left. The little problem was MP coming up calling in the middle of the story, but at the end it wasn't a matter.
Nice hand.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
K

Kaleiduo

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Pre-flop I am not really happy with the action while holding AJs. I don't think it is worth inflating the pot and there are way better spots to pick for this kind of action in NL2 6-max. I think over the long run you will lose more money than you will make in this kind of spot.

BB is pretty much pot committed on the flop and he is coming along no matter what. AJs missed. All you are doing with your bet is improving the short stack's odds of winning the pot.
Agree with this. 4-betting at NL2 doesn't seem wholly necessary to be super profitable, you really want to exploit them post flop anyway (unless this is zoom, but even then, calling makes more sense to me).
 
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