$2 NLHE 6-max: $ : KJ vs AK preflop

[porkchop1955]

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/4qfzUce

Should I have folded on the flop? Or even before that?

I don't think I was exactly in a good position this hand, but it was a really loose, aggressive player, and I strongly suspected they had an Ace (which I was quite proud of).

 

[quant1986]

Preflop open size could be larger like 2.5BB or 3BB. Facing 3bet multiway you are closing the action, you got enough odds to call.

Flop easy fold.

 

[Aragveli81]

You should folded on the flop because of not enough outs.

 

[puzzlefish]

Most of poker at these stakes involves calling when you have the odds pre-flop and folding when you are on the wrong side of the odds on the flop.

 

[Aballinamion]

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/4qfzUce

Should I have folded on the flop? Or even before that?

I don't think I was exactly in a good position this hand, but it was a really loose, aggressive player, and I strongly suspected they had an Ace (which I was quite proud of).

Hi there porkchop1955, welcome to the CardsChat community, thanks a lot for sharing your hand with us. Very good hand!

First of all, KJs from UTG will be a fold most of times. We are going to open KJ suited and similar Broadways combos when we know very well the players ahead (MP, CO and BTN).
We are going to open weak broadways to play versus the SB or BB, if not, we have to change our gameplan. (we want to play IP versus worse players in the SB and BB)
When we open from UTG we don't like giving excellent odds for our opponents to either call ligh or 3bet light upon us. Our raises from UTG will vary from 2.5x, 2.8x, 3x, 2.5x, even 4x or 4.5x depending on the table.
In this case the player in the CO made, what I call a "R 3bet" (Ridiculous 3bet) and the player in the BTN and in the blinds called. I don't think our odds are good enough to enter a MWP out of position in relation to the CO and the BTN, so I would fold this ridiculous 3bet pot out of position.
If I decided to call and the flop comes A2T, I would be folding 100% of times with my gutter versus a fish donk of 100% pot from the SB: observe the sizings preflop and postflop is a way of getting quality information about our villains.
That being said, I'm afraid there is nothing else to say about the hand, otherwise we would be risking an analysis into a snow ball effect spot:

A) Avoid raising weak broadways from UTG, unless you have decent information/stats/notes on the players ahead. Many times hands such as KQo, ATo, AJo even ATs, KJs and KQs would be an easy fold from UTG, this will rely entirely on the condition of the players ahead of UTG (MP, CO and BTN)

B) Avoid entering MWP out of position, even when you have good odds for doing so.

C) Don't call flops in the attempt to hit your straight draws, flush draws, back doors etc. This was a 100% pot bet and you will be missing your gutter more than hitting. This time you win, but what really matters is that your call in the flop was negative EV.
I hope it helps you, any doubt, comments, suggestions, critics, ideias, please do not hesitate to say.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[porkchop1955]

Okay, so let me make sure I understand this correctly.

I should have folded on the flop, because the odds were against me getting a queen. (4/47 = 8.5%, right?)

Don't chase straights. If you don't make one on the flop, fold.

Don't play out of position, it gives information away to other players.

What does MWP mean?

 

[Tunkki]

Flop easiest fold ever. It's good to be critical even you win a good pot.

 

[jadaminato]

Hi there porkchop1955, welcome to the CardsChat community, thanks a lot for sharing your hand with us. Very good hand!

First of all, KJs from UTG will be a fold most of times. We are going to open KJ suited and similar Broadways combos when we know very well the players ahead (MP, CO and BTN).
We are going to open weak broadways to play versus the SB or BB, if not, we have to change our gameplan. (we want to play IP versus worse players in the SB and BB)
When we open from UTG we don't like giving excellent odds for our opponents to either call ligh or 3bet light upon us. Our raises from UTG will vary from 2.5x, 2.8x, 3x, 2.5x, even 4x or 4.5x depending on the table.
In this case the player in the CO made, what I call a "R 3bet" (Ridiculous 3bet) and the player in the BTN and in the blinds called. I don't think our odds are good enough to enter a MWP out of position in relation to the CO and the BTN, so I would fold this ridiculous 3bet pot out of position.
If I decided to call and the flop comes A2T, I would be folding 100% of times with my gutter versus a fish donk of 100% pot from the SB: observe the sizings preflop and postflop is a way of getting quality information about our villains.
That being said, I'm afraid there is nothing else to say about the hand, otherwise we would be risking an analysis into a snow ball effect spot:

A) Avoid raising weak broadways from UTG, unless you have decent information/stats/notes on the players ahead. Many times hands such as KQo, ATo, AJo even ATs, KJs and KQs would be an easy fold from UTG, this will rely entirely on the condition of the players ahead of UTG (MP, CO and BTN)

B) Avoid entering MWP out of position, even when you have good odds for doing so.

C) Don't call flops in the attempt to hit your straight draws, flush draws, back doors etc. This was a 100% pot bet and you will be missing your gutter more than hitting. This time you win, but what really matters is that your call in the flop was negative EV.
I hope it helps you, any doubt, comments, suggestions, critics, ideias, please do not hesitate to say.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

Very good explanation. I agree with everything.

 

[liuouhgkres]

Preflop: you should have opened 3x, your raise is too small. This is not tournament and you are 100bb deep. Kobern 3bets a lot, he has crazy 3bet rate, like 40%. I think this was a very good spot to 4bet. You get really good odds to call, however even then you are not happy on pretty much any flop against so many players. You could 4bet to 38c. KJs is a great hand to 4bet, because you will hit something on the flop and you can play it very aggressively. Obviously you also block KK, AK and JJ, which also helps.

Flop: easy fold.

 

[liuouhgkres]

Okay, so let me make sure I understand this correctly.

I should have folded on the flop, because the odds were against me getting a queen. (4/47 = 8.5%, right?)

Don't chase straights. If you don't make one on the flop, fold.

Don't play out of position, it gives information away to other players.

What does MWP mean?

You can chase straight in small pots, in position, because you get better implied odds. If pot was 8c and villain bets to you pot, you can still call with gutshot, because if you hit straight you can potentially stack villain. So you are paying 4bb to have a chance to win 100bb. However, in your situation you are paying 19bb to win 100bb and also in this spot villain can have set, which reduces your implied odds even further.

 

[Aballinamion]

Okay, so let me make sure I understand this correctly.

I should have folded on the flop, because the odds were against me getting a queen. (4/47 = 8.5%, right?)

Don't chase straights. If you don't make one on the flop, fold.

Don't play out of position, it gives information away to other players.

What does MWP mean?

Thanks for your reply, it is very kind of you. We are going to chase gutshots when it's very cheap and we are facing a recreational who loves to stack and we are slightly deep stacked (around 150 BB).
We must play out of position but the game changes a lot.
MWP means Multi Way Pot, when there are more than 2 players involved in the hand. We call MWP or 3handed, 4handed etc.
Have a nice day!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[porkchop1955]

There's so much I don't know about this, it's slightly discouraging.

 

[Edu1]

my opinion
with Kd Jd preflop is ok to call this multiway pot, you need to see this flop anyway because you open first, A2T villain bet the bot, hard to call in this spot, but this is a cash game and for me is a call, and whats is $2 after all?

 

[c0rnBr34d]

There's so much I don't know about this, it's slightly discouraging.

Welcome to the wonderful world of poker. No matter how much you think you know there is always another level to master. While learning the rules takes minutes, perfecting your game can take a lifetime.

Lot's of good points already made here so I wont go over them all again. I would say that KJdd can be an open from UTG but it's probably a losing play for players who don't study the game much. I would argue that anyone that wants to call a pot sized bet on this flop multi way is not ready to open KJdd UTG. At a cash game this deep I agree we should never be min raising UTG unless it's to induce a reliable 3 bet. As played I'm fine with calling the 3 bet getting 6.6 to 1 on our money. Fold to the large flop donk bet.

 

[jadaminato]

my opinion
with Kd Jd preflop is ok to call this multiway pot, you need to see this flop anyway because you open first, A2T villain bet the bot, hard to call in this spot, but this is a cash game and for me is a call, and whats is $2 after all?

You pay $ 0.38 to earn 10% of the time. Your opponent only has $ 1.80 dollars, so that 10% of the time you will win a little less than 5 times your bet. The other 9 times you will lose that $ 0.38, assuming you are able to fold on the turn if you dont connect. You will lose $ 3.42 in total. If you cannot play profitably in NL2, then less will you be able to advance to NL5. The move was wrong, mathematically speaking.

 

[porkchop1955]

Welcome to the wonderful world of poker. No matter how much you think you know there is always another level to master. While learning the rules takes minutes, perfecting your game can take a lifetime.

Lot's of good points already made here so I wont go over them all again. I would say that KJdd can be an open from UTG but it's probably a losing play for players who don't study the game much. I would argue that anyone that wants to call a pot sized bet on this flop multi way is not ready to open KJdd UTG. At a cash game this deep I agree we should never be min raising UTG unless it's to induce a reliable 3 bet. As played I'm fine with calling the 3 bet getting 6.6 to 1 on our money. Fold to the large flop donk bet.

Ok, so with 100 BB, or greater, I should have re-raised pre-flop? Is that what you mean by never min raising UTG? I clearly should have folded on the flop though, even though I won. I have other questions about this hand, but maybe they're better served in the "Learning Poker" section.

Ultimately, playing for cents is a means to an end. I can afford to make mistakes here. My goal is to learn how to play with these stakes, so I can play better with higher ones.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Ok, so with 100 BB, or greater, I should have re-raised pre-flop? Is that what you mean by never min raising UTG? I clearly should have folded on the flop though, even though I won. I have other questions about this hand, but maybe they're better served in the "Learning Poker" section.

Ultimately, playing for cents is a means to an end. I can afford to make mistakes here. My goal is to learn how to play with these stakes, so I can play better with higher ones.

Good plan with learning in the micros and moving up.

What I mean by min raising UTG (under the gun, first to act after the big blind) is that the big blind is 2 cents and your made the minimum raise to 4 cents. This is more common in tournaments when the stack sizes in relation to the blinds gets much smaller. Many players will have 20-50 BB (or less) in this tournament scenario so opening pre flop to 2 or 2.2 BB is enough to get the job done. In a cash game most players have around 100 BB and one of the most common mistakes players make at the lower levels is calling too wide pre. So you want to size up your pre flop bets to 3 BB (or even more if there are already others who have called) to try to get more players to fold and to punish players who call with bad cards anyway. The more players that see the flop, the harder it is for you to win the pot.

I do not like the idea of 4 betting pre flop after you have already raised, gotten re-raised, and two players have called the 3 bet (re-raise). In this case KJdd is most certainly behind. But since we are getting such a great price (we pay 5 cents for a chance to win 33 cents) we can continue with caution as our KJdd can continue on a fair amount of flops. This wasn't one of those flops.

 

[Edu1]

You pay $ 0.38 to earn 10% of the time. Your opponent only has $ 1.80 dollars, so that 10% of the time you will win a little less than 5 times your bet. The other 9 times you will lose that $ 0.38, assuming you are able to fold on the turn if you dont connect. You will lose $ 3.42 in total. If you cannot play profitably in NL2, then less will you be able to advance to NL5. The move was wrong, mathematically speaking.

I don't care about NL5, I just give my opinion about this specific hand

 

[porkchop1955]

Good plan with learning in the micros and moving up.

What I mean by min raising UTG (under the gun, first to act after the big blind) is that the big blind is 2 cents and your made the minimum raise to 4 cents. This is more common in tournaments when the stack sizes in relation to the blinds gets much smaller. Many players will have 20-50 BB (or less) in this tournament scenario so opening pre flop to 2 or 2.2 BB is enough to get the job done. In a cash game most players have around 100 BB and one of the most common mistakes players make at the lower levels is calling too wide pre. So you want to size up your pre flop bets to 3 BB (or even more if there are already others who have called) to try to get more players to fold and to punish players who call with bad cards anyway. The more players that see the flop, the harder it is for you to win the pot.

I do not like the idea of 4 betting pre flop after you have already raised, gotten re-raised, and two players have called the 3 bet (re-raise). In this case KJdd is most certainly behind. But since we are getting such a great price (we pay 5 cents for a chance to win 33 cents) we can continue with caution as our KJdd can continue on a fair amount of flops. This wasn't one of those flops.

This makes sense, thank you.

 

[jadaminato]

I don't care about NL5, I just give my opinion about this specific hand

Your opinion is that it is better to lose in the long term?

 

[GWU73]

Folding flop is reasonable, but I don't think the call is terrible depending on opponents likelihood of being the turn. If opponent stands about if flops and slows down on the turn, you get pretty good odds. Guys that just keep being turn that equation around.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

my opinion
with Kd Jd preflop is ok to call this multiway pot, you need to see this flop anyway because you open first, A2T villain bet the bot, hard to call in this spot, but this is a cash game and for me is a call, and whats is $2 after all?

You pay $ 0.38 to earn 10% of the time. Your opponent only has $ 1.80 dollars, so that 10% of the time you will win a little less than 5 times your bet. The other 9 times you will lose that $ 0.38, assuming you are able to fold on the turn if you dont connect. You will lose $ 3.42 in total. If you cannot play profitably in NL2, then less will you be able to advance to NL5. The move was wrong, mathematically speaking.

You both bring up good points about the hand. No need to go back and forth as I doubt it will add much value.

Bull points out that calling ranges can be non-linear and that not everyone is looking at pot odds or BB vs the total dollar amount. This can cause players who often play bigger games to make -EV calls like this on the flop and not think twice about it since "it's only 38 cents lol". It can also cause players to fold to bets that feel large because they are playing a bigger game than normal even though they are getting odds to call. We should consider this when sizing our own bets and when calling. We can often use overbets more effectively at micro stakes for this reason.

jada is correct in pointing out that the call has a negative expected value. Even if we don't know what cards the other players hold and we do a more realistic EV calculation against all 3 ranges we will find that we have 3 clean outs facing a pot sized bet with the 3 better behind us that could raise again with TT for example. We will be losing money long term to make this call but I'm sure we have all made -EV calls on a draw in a big pot before. It's fair to point out that it's a losing call, it's not as fair to attack opinions that are rooted in real population tendencies that we should consider.

 

[jadaminato]

You both bring up good points about the hand. No need to go back and forth as I doubt it will add much value.

Bull points out that calling ranges can be non-linear and that not everyone is looking at pot odds or BB vs the total dollar amount. This can cause players who often play bigger games to make -EV calls like this on the flop and not think twice about it since "it's only 38 cents lol". It can also cause players to fold to bets that feel large because they are playing a bigger game than normal even though they are getting odds to call. We should consider this when sizing our own bets and when calling. We can often use overbets more effectively at micro stakes for this reason.

jada is correct in pointing out that the call has a negative expected value. Even if we don't know what cards the other players hold and we do a more realistic EV calculation against all 3 ranges we will find that we have 3 clean outs facing a pot sized bet with the 3 better behind us that could raise again with TT for example. We will be losing money long term to make this call but I'm sure we have all made -EV calls on a draw in a big pot before. It's fair to point out that it's a losing call, it's not as fair to attack opinions that are rooted in real population tendencies that we should consider.

Good explanation, thanks

 

[Edu1]

Your opinion is that it is better to lose in the long term?

what you want man?
I can do nothing, if you are afraid to lose $2, people thinks different, accept that