$2 NLHE 6-max: JJ in 3-bet pot

[Casey55]

does the flop seem like a standard call here? and folding to the turn bet? thoughts appreciated. I gave villain flop betting range of Ax, KQ of spades or 1 spade, KJ of spades or K of spades, KQ same thing, basically made flushes, good 2nd nut flush draws and paired aces.

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $1.47 (74 bb)
MP: $4.95 (248 bb)
CO: $2.18 (109 bb)
BU: $2.42 (121 bb)
SB (Hero): $1.31 (66 bb)
BB: $1.52 (76 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is SB with J♠ J♣
UTG calls $0.02, MP raises to $0.04, 1 fold, BTN 3-bets to $0.06, Hero 4-bets to $0.24, 3 players fold, BTN calls $0.18

Flop: ($0.56) A♠ 7♠ 4♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.26, Hero calls $0.26

Turn: ($1.08) Q♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.52, Hero calls $0.52

River: ($2.12) 2♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.02, Hero calls $0.29 (all-in)

 

[fundiver199]

Yes something like that. You could put out a small bet on the flop as well. Its not the ideal board for JJ obviously, and having a spade only helps a little bit.

 

[TheGenera1]

Your smaller stacksize pretty much commits you once you call flop here. You're risking your remaining $0.81 to win a pot of $1.08. in theory, you need to be correct less than half the time here to make a profitable call over the remaining two streets, but I doubt you're ahead often.

I agree with fundiver, betting 1/3rd on flop would mean that you 1) get to see a turn cheaply if he calls, and 2) if you get raised, can comfortably fold at 2nl imo.

Having said that, it's villain dependant, but against lots of nits I actually check fold to bets on this flop often.

 

[Aballinamion]

does the flop seem like a standard call here? and folding to the turn bet? thoughts appreciated. I gave villain flop betting range of Ax, KQ of spades or 1 spade, KJ of spades or K of spades, KQ same thing, basically made flushes, good 2nd nut flush draws and paired aces.

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $1.47 (74 bb)
MP: $4.95 (248 bb)
CO: $2.18 (109 bb)
BU: $2.42 (121 bb)
SB (Hero): $1.31 (66 bb)
BB: $1.52 (76 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is SB with J♠ J♣
UTG calls $0.02, MP raises to $0.04, 1 fold, BTN 3-bets to $0.06, Hero 4-bets to $0.24, 3 players fold, BTN calls $0.18

Flop: ($0.56) A♠ 7♠ 4♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.26, Hero calls $0.26

Turn: ($1.08) Q♦ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.52, Hero calls $0.52

River: ($2.12) 2♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.02, Hero calls $0.29 (all-in)

Hi there Casey55, thank you very much for sharing it with the CardsChat community.
First of all, I am rat, and to me it is needless to point out that it is not the most profitable way of playing with a broken stack.
It seems you only have 1 buy-in and it is risking your life for it. This is the whole point mate, if you only have 1 buy-in, 5 buy-in, or even 10 buy-in, do not play cash, try to build a bankroll by playing freerolls (lots of patience) or making a fair deposit.
We can never have mental health and self balance for proper decision making if we are preoccupied with our investment.
Having said it, let's jump into the action:

The Preflop

Some hands are very strange to be 3-betting/4-betting after we got some action behind, and I assume that 77-JJ are these types of hands. Now you 4-bet yours 77-JJ from the worst position ever (SB), and what are you going to do if either UTG, MP or BTN re-raises you, go all-in preflop or fold?
Yes, because you can never put a 5-bet here, considering you started the hand broken stack.
A call would work just fine here for this specific scenario (2 and 5 NLHE scenario).
JJ will miss at least 50% of flops when it comes an Ax, Kx or Qx and if we got a push on our faces we must go, since our SPR is quite thin.

the postflop

The Flop

Only the player on the BTN calls but this doesn't make our lives softer. I think that ever since BTN decided to polarize its range OTF, you should not be calling down, what are you expecting another spades? Another Jack? Jam the flop right off the bat and cut the action once and for all.
Because we do 4-bet preflop we have tons of AA, AK that could justify our check-jam OTF. Plus, we don't expect many AK, AA on Villain's range because BTN simply called 4-bet preflop.
If it doesn't make much sense to be calling down OTF, OTT I rather not to say a word.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Casey55]

yes I was wondering if it was too nitty to check-fold the flop. or maybe bet-fold flop? if we bet flop and get called I would be in an awkward spot on the turn not knowing if I should jam or check, what do you guys think about those lines? is check-folding too tight? I figure if the guy is betting the flop his range could have me in a bad spot.

 

[Aballinamion]

yes I was wondering if it was too nitty to check-fold the flop. or maybe bet-fold flop? if we bet flop and get called I would be in an awkward spot on the turn not knowing if I should jam or check, what do you guys think about those lines? is check-folding too tight? I figure if the guy is betting the flop his range could have me in a bad spot.

Thanks for your attention mate. Well, I don't believe the question here relies on whether we are being too nitty or too loose. The question relies on what did you expect by 4-betting preflop to play OOP.
What are you going to do after you 4-bet, Villain calls and you are out of position, with all of your 4-betting range?
I said that you should jam the flop for one simple reason: Villain/IP should not be betting this flop for 1/2 pot, because you have all the AA, AK, KK etc on your 4-bet range.
And if Villain goes by betting it should be going for 1/3 pot, not 1/2 pot. To me, players that are simply 100 blinds ES and decide to go for 1/2, 2/3/ 3/4 on a 4-bet pot, for no specific reason, it is because they didn't play enough 4-bet pots on their lives, and they believe they can c-bet or just bet 1/2 pot for a single raised pot, 3-bet pot and 4-bet pot.
Check folding makes non-sense to me, since you have pretty good equity for hitting the 2nd nut flush.
Plus, after we do play millions of hands, we observe on our HUD trackers that most of ours 3-bet and 4-bet pots we are going all-in OTR.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[Casey55]

Thanks for your attention mate. Well, I don't believe the question here relies on whether we are being too nitty or too loose. The question relies on what did you expect by 4-betting preflop to play OOP.
What are you going to do after you 4-bet, Villain calls and you are out of position, with all of your 4-betting range?
I said that you should jam the flop for one simple reason: Villain/IP should not be betting this flop for 1/2 pot, because you have all the AA, AK, KK etc on your 4-bet range.
And if Villain goes by betting it should be going for 1/3 pot, not 1/2 pot. To me, players that are simply 100 blinds ES and decide to go for 1/2, 2/3/ 3/4 on a 4-bet pot, for no specific reason, it is because they didn't play enough 4-bet pots on their lives, and they believe they can c-bet or just bet 1/2 pot for a single raised pot, 3-bet pot and 4-bet pot.
Check folding makes non-sense to me, since you have pretty good equity for hitting the 2nd nut flush.
Plus, after we do play millions of hands, we observe on our HUD trackers that most of ours 3-bet and 4-bet pots we are going all-in OTR.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

villains 3-bet is a min bet, hardly a 3-bet, I basically came in for a real 3-bet and he called, His range could be suited broad-ways medium strength PP , AK,AQ.

"The question is what did I expect by 4-betting pre-flop to play OOP"? Idk what you mean by this, I'm not calling a lousy min-raise 3-bet with JJ here. Js is not the 2nd Nut-flush since the K and Q of spades are not in my hand nor the board.

What parts of our range are going to jam the flop here in Villains eyes? probably not made flushes , AK or AQ with a spade doesn't jam because we want to bet smaller for value and get called. I don't see how jamming works in this spot. Villain is getting 1.5:1 on a flop jam call, he can play good and fold his bad hands while calling with his good hands.

 

[Casey55]

Your smaller stacksize pretty much commits you once you call flop here. You're risking your remaining $0.81 to win a pot of $1.08. in theory, you need to be correct less than half the time here to make a profitable call over the remaining two streets, but I doubt you're ahead often.

I agree with fundiver, betting 1/3rd on flop would mean that you 1) get to see a turn cheaply if he calls, and 2) if you get raised, can comfortably fold at 2nl imo.

Having said that, it's villain dependant, but against lots of nits I actually check fold to bets on this flop often.

I like the idea of it, I just don't know if we should be betting JJ on this board, if we get called its going to be by paired aces and better Flush-draws it seems, what do you think?

 

[jaworek1405]

Hello, I think that hero's line isn't too bad. When you 4bet pre flop from the small blind and check on the flop you give your opponent an initiative. Maybe in this situation better and more safer option is playing check/call the flop, check/call the turn and check/call the river because we have jack of spade, it is a high card in spade, good flush draw for us. I only wonder if it is right game in long run, because hero risk all his money to complete the flush. Opponent seems to be weak, because his 3bet should be bigger pre flop, about 3-4x. I agree with hero that when opponent 3bets something pre flop in his range can be higher card of spade than jack. Hard situation. On the river we have no choice and we have to call opponent's bet, because we are committed with a pot. GL

 

[KyleJRM]

I like the idea of it, I just don't know if we should be betting JJ on this board, if we get called its going to be by paired aces and better Flush-draws it seems, what do you think?

Continuation betting and getting called puts you in a better spot than check-calling, because it does a better job of defining their range.


Your problem here is that you're out of position with no idea of where you stand on the board. You don't know if dry cards help you (because you don't know if you're ahead or not with the commonly paired overcard, plus more overcards can come as happened on the turn) and you don't know if wet cards help you (because there's two better one-card flushes out there, and a third jack may not be much help if a flush has already been made).

With the short stack, there's not a lot of room to maneuver outside of getting yourself pot-committed or folding on the flop, and the decision isn't going to get any easier on future streets, so you need to make it then and there. You're either check-raising with the intention of getting it all in, or folding after he bets at you.