$2 NLHE 6-max: Interesting 4-bet hand

J

JackOscar

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So I think this hand is actually more interesting from the perspective of the Villian but we can start from my side.

First of all I think I made a mistake 4-betting here in the first place, I definitely should have just flatted. CO 3-Bet against MP is probably pretty unlikely to be light (or so you'd think) especially since he made it 4x so I'm probably just always getting flatted here or re-raised all in at which point it's even more unlikely he's light and that's just a bad spot for me. So the only thing I'm raising for value is AA,KK probably and I don't really want a bluffing range here so best to just flat everything I think?

Moving away from that, when I do 4-bet here I think I definitely should have made it bigger since the effective stack size is very large so he's getting much better implied odds than usual and can therefor call with speculative hands (assuming he has them in his range) he would've otherwise had to folded if I made it bigger like 3x or 3.5x.

For my bet sizing post flop I pretty much just tried to set it up for a potential river shove (so I probably made the flop/turn bets if that was my goal since I would easily have a river bet with smaller sizing, but I think that's not a huge concern). Should I have been less aggressive here to give respect to the KK,AA (and JJ) which should be a decent portion of his range here?

If another blank came on the river and he checked I probably would've checked back, and if a K or A came I would've shoved hoping he had something like AJs.


Now, from the Villian's perspective:

His 3-bet and 3-Bet sizing feel really bad for the reasons I outlined above, but I think his call to my 4-Bet is probably +EV because he's getting really good implied odds like I said. Calling the flop with the gutshot and backdoor flush draw as a float feels fine as well, if a scare card hits the turn and I check he could probably try to steal the pot here I think?

Now when the 8 of spades hit on the turn giving him 15 outs to what I'm pretty sure is always the nuts I think this is a perfect spot for him to check-raise all in. I'm not even sure what I'm calling with in that spot, maybe just KK and AA or JJ (which probably isn't in my range), definitely never calling with worse than AK so I think that was a huge missed opportunity for him. I think he has a lot of fold equity here either way to go along with his heaps of actual equity.

As played on the river I don't think the ace of diamonds is a very good bluffing card for him since it's probably pretty likely it improved my hand and he doesn't have enough left behind at this point anyway for me to ever consider a fold anyway I think, the turn was definitely the time to shove I think.

So this turned into a lot of a longer post than I thought, but hopefully there's someone out there that wants to read some of it. Would love some feedback on my thought process here and if I should have done anything different, the stuff I mentioned or otherwise.


888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

KILYROCK113 (UTG): $3.25 (163 bb)
Skylorun (MP): $2.59 (130 bb)
Drando14 (CO): $4.21 (211 bb)
JackOscar95 (BU): $4.41 (221 bb)
Transfarmer (SB): $2.16 (108 bb)
carlosfile (BB): $0.34 (17 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (JackOscar95) is BTN with K A
1 fold, Skylorun (MP) raises to $0.05, Drando14 (CO) 3-bets to $0.20, JackOscar95 (BU) 4-bets to $0.50, 3 players fold, Drando14 (CO) calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.08) J K 4 (2 players)
Drando14 (CO) checks, JackOscar95 (BU) bets $0.44, Drando14 (CO) calls $0.44

Turn: ($1.96) 8 (2 players)
Drando14 (CO) checks, JackOscar95 (BU) bets $0.96, Drando14 (CO) calls $0.96

River: ($3.88) A (2 players)
Drando14 (CO) bets $2.31 (all-in), JackOscar95 (BU) calls $2.31

Total pot: $8.50 (Rake: $0.53)

Showdown:
Drando14 (CO) shows 9 T (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 41%, Flop: 22%, Turn: 34%, River: 0%)

JackOscar95 (BU) shows K A (two pair, Aces and Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 59%, Flop: 78%, Turn: 66%, River: 100%)

JackOscar95 (BU) wins $7.97
 
F

fundiver199

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Preflop
I think, 4-betting AK is fine, and your size is also fine for a 4-bet. They typically dont need to be as large as a 3-bet. I am probably not intending to get it in for 200BB, but its ok to 4-bet AK and then fold to a 5-bet. If they only 5-bet KK+, then the 5-bet will be very rare because of your blockers. Also this is 2NL, so you can definitely 4-bet lighter for value, which this hand perfectly illustrate.

As for CO and his T9s, I am ok with 3-betting this hand to have some bluffs in my 3-betting range, but when he gets 4-bet, he should just let it go. Calling a 4-bet OOP with a suited connector like this is a losing play, even with the extra stack depth. If he was in position, it would be a little bit better.

Flop
Perfectly fine C-bet from AK, even though against better players we might opt for a bit of pot control, because its difficult to see, which hands we get 3 streets of value from in a 4-bet pot. But at 2NL, where the opponent is probably bad, sure go ahead and bet for value. As for CO and his T9s, he should once again just fold. And this is the whole issue with calling preflop. He flopped a junky draw, so he cant profitably check-call out of position. But he cant profitably check-raise either, because your range is just so super strong.

Turn
Against a better player we might need to slow down now, if we bet the flop, because once again there are not many hands, he can even have, that will pay us all three streets. But at 2NL, sure bet again. As for CO and his T9s, he picked up a flushdraw and more straight outs as well, so other than binking his gutshot, this was just about as good, as it gets. But he likely still dont have any fold equity, so check-calling is pretty much his only play to make here.

River
Co misses and tries the good old donk bet. I agree, that this is a very bad play, since hands like AA, KK and AK will now like the board even more, and these hands are the majority of your range. He need to just give up and check-fold, as he should already have done preflop. As for AK you have a very easy call. If he has one of the few hands, that beat you, like JJ or QTs, then god bless him. Nice hand sir, now let us play the next one. Fortunately for you he had a busted draw, and you got absolutely max value from your hand.
 
J

JackOscar

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Preflop
I think, 4-betting AK is fine, and your size is also fine for a 4-bet. They typically dont need to be as large as a 3-bet. I am probably not intending to get it in for 200BB, but its ok to 4-bet AK and then fold to a 5-bet. If they only 5-bet KK+, then the 5-bet will be very rare because of your blockers. Also this is 2NL, so you can definitely 4-bet lighter for value, which this hand perfectly illustrate.

As for CO and his T9s, I am ok with 3-betting this hand to have some bluffs in my 3-betting range, but when he gets 4-bet, he should just let it go. Calling a 4-bet OOP with a suited connector like this is a losing play, even with the extra stack depth. If he was in position, it would be a little bit better.

Flop
Perfectly fine C-bet from AK, even though against better players we might opt for a bit of pot control, because its difficult to see, which hands we get 3 streets of value from in a 4-bet pot. But at 2NL, where the opponent is probably bad, sure go ahead and bet for value. As for CO and his T9s, he should once again just fold. And this is the whole issue with calling preflop. He flopped a junky draw, so he cant profitably check-call out of position. But he cant profitably check-raise either, because your range is just so super strong.

Turn
Against a better player we might need to slow down now, if we bet the flop, because once again there are not many hands, he can even have, that will pay us all three streets. But at 2NL, sure bet again. As for CO and his T9s, he picked up a flushdraw and more straight outs as well, so other than binking his gutshot, this was just about as good, as it gets. But he likely still dont have any fold equity, so check-calling is pretty much his only play to make here.

River
Co misses and tries the good old donk bet. I agree, that this is a very bad play, since hands like AA, KK and AK will now like the board even more, and these hands are the majority of your range. He need to just give up and check-fold, as he should already have done preflop. As for AK you have a very easy call. If he has one of the few hands, that beat you, like JJ or QTs, then god bless him. Nice hand sir, now let us play the next one. Fortunately for you he had a busted draw, and you got absolutely max value from your hand.

Hey, thank you that's very informative. Definitely makes a lot of sense that we might try to pot control this a little since AK isn't really a 3 streets of value hand here, QQ probably won't call all the way down either way. Do you really think he doesn't have any fold equity on the flop here though? I think I would have struggled to call with AK here if he did but maybe it's a clear cut call for me always in that spot?
 
Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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So I think this hand is actually more interesting from the perspective of the Villian but we can start from my side.

First of all I think I made a mistake 4-betting here in the first place, I definitely should have just flatted. CO 3-Bet against MP is probably pretty unlikely to be light (or so you'd think) especially since he made it 4x so I'm probably just always getting flatted here or re-raised all in at which point it's even more unlikely he's light and that's just a bad spot for me. So the only thing I'm raising for value is AA,KK probably and I don't really want a bluffing range here so best to just flat everything I think?

Moving away from that, when I do 4-bet here I think I definitely should have made it bigger since the effective stack size is very large so he's getting much better implied odds than usual and can therefor call with speculative hands (assuming he has them in his range) he would've otherwise had to folded if I made it bigger like 3x or 3.5x.

For my bet sizing post flop I pretty much just tried to set it up for a potential river shove (so I probably made the flop/turn bets if that was my goal since I would easily have a river bet with smaller sizing, but I think that's not a huge concern). Should I have been less aggressive here to give respect to the KK,AA (and JJ) which should be a decent portion of his range here?

If another blank came on the river and he checked I probably would've checked back, and if a K or A came I would've shoved hoping he had something like AJs.


Now, from the Villian's perspective:

His 3-bet and 3-Bet sizing feel really bad for the reasons I outlined above, but I think his call to my 4-Bet is probably +EV because he's getting really good implied odds like I said. Calling the flop with the gutshot and backdoor flush draw as a float feels fine as well, if a scare card hits the turn and I check he could probably try to steal the pot here I think?

Now when the 8 of spades hit on the turn giving him 15 outs to what I'm pretty sure is always the nuts I think this is a perfect spot for him to check-raise all in. I'm not even sure what I'm calling with in that spot, maybe just KK and AA or JJ (which probably isn't in my range), definitely never calling with worse than AK so I think that was a huge missed opportunity for him. I think he has a lot of fold equity here either way to go along with his heaps of actual equity.

As played on the river I don't think the ace of diamonds is a very good bluffing card for him since it's probably pretty likely it improved my hand and he doesn't have enough left behind at this point anyway for me to ever consider a fold anyway I think, the turn was definitely the time to shove I think.

So this turned into a lot of a longer post than I thought, but hopefully there's someone out there that wants to read some of it. Would love some feedback on my thought process here and if I should have done anything different, the stuff I mentioned or otherwise.


888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

KILYROCK113 (UTG): $3.25 (163 bb)
Skylorun (MP): $2.59 (130 bb)
Drando14 (CO): $4.21 (211 bb)
JackOscar95 (BU): $4.41 (221 bb)
Transfarmer (SB): $2.16 (108 bb)
carlosfile (BB): $0.34 (17 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero (JackOscar95) is BTN with K A
1 fold, Skylorun (MP) raises to $0.05, Drando14 (CO) 3-bets to $0.20, JackOscar95 (BU) 4-bets to $0.50, 3 players fold, Drando14 (CO) calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.08) J K 4 (2 players)
Drando14 (CO) checks, JackOscar95 (BU) bets $0.44, Drando14 (CO) calls $0.44

Turn: ($1.96) 8 (2 players)
Drando14 (CO) checks, JackOscar95 (BU) bets $0.96, Drando14 (CO) calls $0.96

River: ($3.88) A (2 players)
Drando14 (CO) bets $2.31 (all-in), JackOscar95 (BU) calls $2.31

Total pot: $8.50 (Rake: $0.53)

Showdown:
Drando14 (CO) shows 9 T (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 41%, Flop: 22%, Turn: 34%, River: 0%)

JackOscar95 (BU) shows K A (two pair, Aces and Kings)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 59%, Flop: 78%, Turn: 66%, River: 100%)

JackOscar95 (BU) wins $7.97

Phew..with that ammount of stacks involved this is very brave.

1) Co 3-bets UTG for a polarized sizing (3-bet to 4x).

2) We do 4-bet to 2.5x versus CO 3-bet, which could be fine if CO's 3-bet wasn't polarized. Now the pot is bigger than usual and we are 'deep stack'.

3) Continuing the polarization we bet a little bit more than 1/3 pot for a flop that isn't that scary at all: The only hands that have us beat right now are JJ and KJ, and many players are folding KJ to a 4-bet like that.
Villain cannot display 44 here, J4, K4, we are blocking the one liner straight nuts, and there is no flush draws.
Add to this situation that Villain can never show AA, KK, and AK in this scenario, we are removing these combos and if Villain really had AA and KK it would not be flatting preflop, no one is doing it.

4) OTT, we should be checking more often than betting, au contraire of other hands where we are only 100 blinds deep, in this hand we are 200 blinds deep and we already put a lot of chips into the table. Yes, we are scared of the flush of spades but there is only 18% chance to get it on the river, and when we go by checking our TPTK to the river, we can leave it in the case Villain gives too many action for the hand.

It is very dangerous to be betting on this turn without nutted hands. If Villain comes over the top we have to call with TPTK, knowing our chances to be winning are minimal.

5) OTR the situation gets nasty. I don't know if I am calling down this bet, but you did, well played. We know that the whole scenario is telling us that Villain doesn't have hands that beat us, but this is 2 NLHE and we are risking 400 blinds pot + rake to see that finally, indeed, Villain pushed its busted draws OTR.

Good example of why we should avoid bluffing at the micros: Hero/BTN should be folding in a decent frequency hands like TPTK and Two Pair, and calling down only with Sets and Straights. But we see that people don't believe in bluffs, it is a myth, but Villain played fine as well.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
J

JackOscar

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Joined
Jul 16, 2020
Total posts
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Phew..with that ammount of stacks involved this is very brave.

1) Co 3-bets UTG for a polarized sizing (3-bet to 4x).

2) We do 4-bet to 2.5x versus CO 3-bet, which could be fine if CO's 3-bet wasn't polarized. Now the pot is bigger than usual and we are 'deep stack'.

3) Continuing the polarization we bet a little bit more than 1/3 pot for a flop that isn't that scary at all: The only hands that have us beat right now are JJ and KJ, and many players are folding KJ to a 4-bet like that.
Villain cannot display 44 here, J4, K4, we are blocking the one liner straight nuts, and there is no flush draws.
Add to this situation that Villain can never show AA, KK, and AK in this scenario, we are removing these combos and if Villain really had AA and KK it would not be flatting preflop, no one is doing it.

4) OTT, we should be checking more often than betting, au contraire of other hands where we are only 100 blinds deep, in this hand we are 200 blinds deep and we already put a lot of chips into the table. Yes, we are scared of the flush of spades but there is only 18% chance to get it on the river, and when we go by checking our TPTK to the river, we can leave it in the case Villain gives too many action for the hand.

It is very dangerous to be betting on this turn without nutted hands. If Villain comes over the top we have to call with TPTK, knowing our chances to be winning are minimal.

5) OTR the situation gets nasty. I don't know if I am calling down this bet, but you did, well played. We know that the whole scenario is telling us that Villain doesn't have hands that beat us, but this is 2 NLHE and we are risking 400 blinds pot + rake to see that finally, indeed, Villain pushed its busted draws OTR.

Good example of why we should avoid bluffing at the micros: Hero/BTN should be folding in a decent frequency hands like TPTK and Two Pair, and calling down only with Sets and Straights. But we see that people don't believe in bluffs, it is a myth, but Villain played fine as well.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa



On the river I think the call is not too hard, the Ace isn't scary and I'm getting 28% pot odds, very hard to find the fold button here, no? I'm still beating a lot of his hands he can have here like AJ, KJ (if he has it, doubtful like you said), AsQs that had enough equity to float flop and call turn and now got some SDV. Maybe some KQ think this is a good hand to bet out on the river since the ace on the board makes my AK less likely. I think I have to call here.

But like you said on the turn I think it would be very tricky if he check-raise all in with his monster draw like I said in the post, what do you think about that play? I would always check-raise as villain OTT.
 
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