$2 NLHE 6-max: Is +EV to 4bet and call a 5bet shove with 77?

freddydr87

freddydr87

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I dont have all AK in my 5bet shove rangue,i put some in a call 4bet and some in a 5bet shove. But vilain is going to find there like 30% off time AK,30% AA,30% KK and in a 10% some QQ to even TT, any wais he is dominated from all thouse hands and with AK it is a flip, so the question is,is a good call?or was beatter to fold once the 4bet bluff didnt work?
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/124sZkpD4
 
Aballinamion

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4bet range?

I dont have all AK in my 5bet shove rangue,i put some in a call 4bet and some in a 5bet shove. But vilain is going to find there like 30% off time AK,30% AA,30% KK and in a 10% some QQ to even TT, any wais he is dominated from all thouse hands and with AK it is a flip, so the question is,is a good call?or was beatter to fold once the 4bet bluff didnt work?
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/124sZkpD4

Good evening freddydr87, how you doing friend? Hope everything is fine! Happy new year and happy holidays for your friends and family.
Thank you for posting your hands. They are very good questions and awesome for everybody in the CardsChat community.
Without further due, I would love to observe something that I always observe:
Before getting into any observations about ranges, look at the stack sizes of the opponents.
As played, MP opens 3x, fine, BTN 3bets MP for 3x, also fine, and then we see a player with a broken stack (71 blinds ES), out of position to make a 4bet upon the MP open raisor (very strong range) and BTN 3bettor (also strong range).
Without having information if the player could have AA or KK we gotta ask ourselves if the whole picture makes sense:

A broken stack player, out of position 4bets MP and BTN 3.4x. This is not a realistic 4bet size at Cash Games. At the micros specially. The player is putting too much stack in the pot, and leaves only a couple of chips where it could not play good postflop. A 4-bet that big continues with either a shove flop or shove flop. No options!
IMO, a decent 4bet size out of position would be 2.5x at maximum. My 4bets are something between 2x and 2.5x against regulars and 2.2x to 3x against recreational players.
However, I don't love 4betting anything when I have only 100 blinds Effective Stack. I rather 4bet when I have more than 130 blinds of Stack Size. I don't love 4betting when I have just 100 blinds, because I get almost commited with anything I decided to 4bet.
So, when I am playing a 100 blinds stack I am mostly NIT passive and calling down the majority of 3bets against regulars. I am basically only 4betting AA and AKs when I have only 100 blinds of stack size, and even so sometimes I call. (against good players only).
I also don't love flipping preflop playing Cash Games. Unless, I am playing a similar Villain that you played with. :D
Given the Stack Size of SB's Villain, there was nothing else to do when the 4bet comes for you. SB has only 40 blinds behind, so there's no point for a postflop game. In cases like this, I would never hesitate shoving no only AKs, AQs, AJs, sometimes even ATs, maybe weaker broadways as KQs, KJs, QJs, why not? and 99+
So, we observe that the move of SB doesn't make sense. With this small ammount of stack size, SB should be going jamming right on the spot, because with only 40 blinds behind, when it comes a flop, the jam is almost mandatory, given SPR.
We never get tired to see how fantastic 2 NLHE is! Look and wonder what those recreational players do over and over: 4betting 77 out of position against 2 players? Is is a value or a bluff 4bet? Are we playing 2 NLHE or 2000 NLHE? Because maybe at 2000 NLHE this 4bet would be right. Maybe...
IF the SB is 4betting 77 out of position against MP raisor can we picture how wide this player is 4betting in position? This one deserves a real good note! :D
Well played freddydr87! Don't get me wrong for my candor, respect always and good game at the tables!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
freddydr87

freddydr87

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Good evening freddydr87, how you doing friend? Hope everything is fine! Happy new year and happy holidays for your friends and family.
Thank you for posting your hands. They are very good questions and awesome for everybody in the CardsChat community.
Without further due, I would love to observe something that I always observe:
Before getting into any observations about ranges, look at the stack sizes of the opponents.
As played, MP opens 3x, fine, BTN 3bets MP for 3x, also fine, and then we see a player with a broken stack (71 blinds ES), out of position to make a 4bet upon the MP open raisor (very strong range) and BTN 3bettor (also strong range).
Without having information if the player could have AA or KK we gotta ask ourselves if the whole picture makes sense:

A broken stack player, out of position 4bets MP and BTN 3.4x. This is not a realistic 4bet size at Cash Games. At the micros specially. The player is putting too much stack in the pot, and leaves only a couple of chips where it could not play good postflop. A 4-bet that big continues with either a shove flop or shove flop. No options!
IMO, a decent 4bet size out of position would be 2.5x at maximum. My 4bets are something between 2x and 2.5x against regulars and 2.2x to 3x against recreational players.
However, I don't love 4betting anything when I have only 100 blinds Effective Stack. I rather 4bet when I have more than 130 blinds of Stack Size. I don't love 4betting when I have just 100 blinds, because I get almost commited with anything I decided to 4bet.
So, when I am playing a 100 blinds stack I am mostly NIT passive and calling down the majority of 3bets against regulars. I am basically only 4betting AA and AKs when I have only 100 blinds of stack size, and even so sometimes I call. (against good players only).
I also don't love flipping preflop playing Cash Games. Unless, I am playing a similar Villain that you played with. :D
Given the Stack Size of SB's Villain, there was nothing else to do when the 4bet comes for you. SB has only 40 blinds behind, so there's no point for a postflop game. In cases like this, I would never hesitate shoving no only AKs, AQs, AJs, sometimes even ATs, maybe weaker broadways as KQs, KJs, QJs, why not? and 99+
So, we observe that the move of SB doesn't make sense. With this small ammount of stack size, SB should be going jamming right on the spot, because with only 40 blinds behind, when it comes a flop, the jam is almost mandatory, given SPR.
We never get tired to see how fantastic 2 NLHE is! Look and wonder what those recreational players do over and over: 4betting 77 out of position against 2 players? Is is a value or a bluff 4bet? Are we playing 2 NLHE or 2000 NLHE? Because maybe at 2000 NLHE this 4bet would be right. Maybe...
IF the SB is 4betting 77 out of position against MP raisor can we picture how wide this player is 4betting in position? This one deserves a real good note! :D
Well played freddydr87! Don't get me wrong for my candor, respect always and good game at the tables!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
As allwais very helpfull your analisis,we are fine here ty,happy new year to you and your family too
 
G

gustav197poker

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It really depends on several factors. As for example the stake where you play, the 4bet rank of the villain, the effective stack with which he plays, the positions involved, the mood of the villain, the frequency of defense against 4 bet out of position, etc.
This is a flip situation, where in a scenario x, the proportions that are involved are balanced in their ranges by 50%, compared to their implicit probabilities of improvement, towards the community streets that the board provides.
So if we isolate all the mentioned factors, and only consider the ranges that are played, the ev has a neutral effect + the probability of improvement, according to the texture in each of the flop, turn and river stages.
Greetings.
 
0815am

0815am

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Reasons to not cold 4Bet:
1) you are facing an UTG open and a Button 3B
I would much rather cold 4B a Btn open and a SB 3B when I am in the BB
2) 77 doesn’t block any of their value range. You are better off with A5o or KJo
3) your 4B sizing is way too big. I would cold 4B to 2.2-2.6 of the 3B size. Higher side if I am OOP to 3Bettor

If villain shoves this is a clear fold.
 
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