$2 NLHE 6-max: Cooler or a bad play?

[Morra123]

appreciate any help.



pokerstars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: $2.84 (142 bb)
MP: $2.93 (147 bb)
CO: $4.23 (212 bb)
BU (Hero): $2.20 (110 bb)
SB: $1.96 (98 bb)
BB: $2.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BTN with 7♠ 8♠
3 players fold, Hero raises to $0.05, SB calls $0.04, BB calls $0.03

Flop: ($0.15) 3♥ 8♣ 7♥ (3 players)
SB bets $0.07, BB calls $0.07, Hero raises to $0.30, SB calls $0.23, BB folds

Turn: ($0.82) 6♣ (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.85 (all-in), SB calls $1.61 (all-in)

River: ($4.04) 6♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $4.04 (Rake: $0.53)

Showdown:
BU (Hero) shows 7♠ 8♠ (two pair, Eights and Sevens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 39%, Flop: 65%, Turn: 9%, River: 0%)

SB shows 9♦ T♥ (a straight, Six to Ten)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 61%, Flop: 35%, Turn: 91%, River: 100%)

SB wins $3.51

 

[Jarud]

By putting villian all in on the turn (massively overbetting) you force villian to play well. I.e call you down with all the hands that crush you, sets and straights and give up all his marginal hands and draws.
Are you hoping to get called by a worse hand when you put him all in?

I like a small bet maybe 1/3 pot on the turn.

 

[fundiver199]

By putting villian all in on the turn (massively overbetting) you force villian to play well. I.e call you down with all the hands that crush you, sets and straights and give up all his marginal hands and draws.
Are you hoping to get called by a worse hand when you put him all in?

I like a small bet maybe 1/3 pot on the turn.

Pretty much this. I might go a little bigger like half pot, but the idea is still the same. And if he check-jam, this is a fold at 2NL. He is rarely going to do that without a straight, and against a straight you have less than 10% equity with 4 outs and 1 card to come.

 

[quant1986]

I don't think the turn jam is that bad against particular player types. You may find some calls with overpairs and good draws.

I would like to bet 80% pot OTT given the texture and re-evaluate if get raised all-in - would fold to players that play draws passively.

 

[Sidetracked]

This is very player specific.

If villain is a player who doesn't understand odds and will call with any draw up to the river, this can be a very effective play.

 

[John A]

#1 rule in poker... don't make bets that make decisions for your opponent easy. If your opponent has a draw or a combo draw here, they are folding to your turn shove, unless they want to gamble. And you shouldn't put your opponent in that position unless you're sure they are someone who wants to gamble.

Several mistakes in this hand, but that's the most important take away imho.

 

[300HPGOD]

As others have said this is not a good bet on the turn. What hand worse than ours would be calling this bet as I would think 83 and 73 are non existent due to the pre flop raise. The hands that would get to this point are either 33 or a hands where the straight just hit. I think maybe there is a case that 86 could be your target but that is such a small part of villains range. What you essentially did on this hand was make a negative expectation bet. You are never (outside of 86 which is very rare) getting called by worse and only getting called by the hands that crush you. So your bet will either make you no additional money or will lose you your stack hence the negative expectation.

Don't get me wrong here, I am for betting on the turn but it should be in the 45-70% range of pot and not an overbet all in. Betting this size keeps in the 8xs and also keeps in any hand that may be 9x or 5x and turned a draw.

 

[jaworek1405]

Hello, I think that you didn't make a big mistake in this hand. Above all on nl2 I recommend raise pre flop at least 3x, because less raise pre flop than 3x your opponents won't respect. In this situation if you raise 3x better players should fold t9o from the small blind position. Many weak players on nl2 will play very weak hands like here, because they are beginner and they learn play poker. As played - I think that it was a small cooler. Opponent has 8 outs to hit the straight and the turn card was very helpful for him. This situation it happens sometimes in poker and you probably can't nothing to do. Don't worry. GL

 

[c0rnBr34d]

Several mistakes in this hand, but that's the most important take away imho.

I'm actually interested in the other things part here. Opening 2.5x on the button with 87ss seems fine. Putting in the 4x+ raise over a donk flop lead and call on a draw heavy board with position and top two pair also seems fine to me. Maybe we can size up to pot but that seems fairly minor. So other than the turn over bet I'd like to know what I'm doing wrong pre and flop.

 

[gustav197poker]

I'm actually interested in the other things part here. Opening 2.5x on the button with 87ss seems fine. Putting in the 4x+ raise over a donk flop lead and call on a draw heavy board with position and top two pair also seems fine to me. Maybe we can size up to pot but that seems fairly minor. So other than the turn over bet I'd like to know what I'm doing wrong pre and flop.

I guess John means that we should try not to a price the blinds cheap so they can call with high frequency on the micros. 2.5bb is possibly an acceptable limit, although 3bb may be optimal. And on the flop we shouldn't unprotect our range. We need to have 8h to neutralize a negative implied equity part, otherwise we will be flipping with 6 more flush draw + top pair combos that we must add to the villain's range. Other than that I think the general hero line is very acceptable in my opinion.

 

[John A]

I'm actually interested in the other things part here. Opening 2.5x on the button with 87ss seems fine. Putting in the 4x+ raise over a donk flop lead and call on a draw heavy board with position and top two pair also seems fine to me. Maybe we can size up to pot but that seems fairly minor. So other than the turn over bet I'd like to know what I'm doing wrong pre and flop.

Sure, and totally fair questions. 2.5 pre is ok, but I do think in micros people make more mistakes with their hand ranges that benefit you if you raise more. Everyone is just copying what mid and high stakes pros do without making the proper adjustments for their opponents. It's Lemming poker instead of thoughtful poker. If your opponent is going to call w/ the same range of hands and not defend at a proper frequency, why should you only open 2.5x on the button?

The flop raise sizing isn't good, and it's not minor. If you're dropping as much as 5-15 extra bbs in a hand, that's not a minor mistake imho.

The obvious big mistake is the turn over shove. Check or bet depends on opponent there, but most of the time you want to check the turn IP and bluff catch or bet river. If stack sizes were different it would always be a bet.

 

[c0rnBr34d]

The flop raise sizing isn't good, and it's not minor. If you're dropping as much as 5-15 extra bbs in a hand, that's not a minor mistake imho.

Thanks for the follow up. I agree with your points but I'm still unclear on the flop.
What flop raise sizing would you suggest? And why?

 

[John A]

Thanks for the follow up. I agree with your points but I'm still unclear on the flop.
What flop raise sizing would you suggest? And why?

At least 3/4 pot sized raise. Why - In order to maximize value versus your opponents range which will mostly be draws.

 

[gustav197poker]

I think if we go strong on the flop we are almost forced to keep betting/pushing on this turn. Why give our opponent a free card? If we add that micro-stakes players have less fold equity on these types of boards, I don't see much need to check the turn as we don't plan to fold the river. But with 2 active villains in hand, I honestly don't know how profitable it is to bet big on this flop. We should have at least a dead heart to represent some FD + TP and reduce the variance.

 

[fundiver199]

Everyone is just copying what mid and high stakes pros do without making the proper adjustments for their opponents.

This is a fairly important point. Preflop the idea behind raising to 2,5BB or even min-raising from BTN is, that it makes it cheap to steal the blinds, which again allow us to widen our range, if the opponents are not defending enough. But this is clearly not the case at 2NL. People are beginners and/or playing for fun, so if anything they are defending their blinds to much. As evidenced by this hand where someone called from small blind with T9o. So in this game we should use a stronger range and a larger size to punish that need to see a flop even out of position.

And when we essentially flop the nuts, then we can just pile money in. Even if we bet full pot, its still only 45c. Nobody care about 45c, so if they like their hand, they are still going to call. Nathan Villiams AKA Blackrain79 talk a lot about this in his first book. And while you cant take these exploitative lines quite as far, as you could a decade ago, you can certainly still be extremely unbalanced at 2NL and still get paid.

 

[John A]

This is a fairly important point. Preflop the idea behind raising to 2,5BB or even min-raising from BTN is, that it makes it cheap to steal the blinds, which again allow us to widen our range, if the opponents are not defending enough. But this is clearly not the case at 2NL. People are beginners and/or playing for fun, so if anything they are defending their blinds to much. As evidenced by this hand where someone called from small blind with T9o. So in this game we should use a stronger range and a larger size to punish that need to see a flop even out of position.

And when we essentially flop the nuts, then we can just pile money in. Even if we bet full pot, its still only 45c. Nobody care about 45c, so if they like their hand, they are still going to call. Nathan Villiams AKA Blackrain79 talk a lot about this in his first book. And while you cant take these exploitative lines quite as far, as you could a decade ago, you can certainly still be extremely unbalanced at 2NL and still get paid.

Don't tell people you can still open just as wide, but open for more and their opponents will still have the same defending range, it will just blow their minds (and increase their bankrolls).

And yes, you can't play purely as exploitative as you could several years ago, but trust me, you can still at just about all micro stakes. In a lot of cases, people are following very static advice and if you do something different, they don't even know how to adjust properly at these levels.

I sweat students where there's fish in the blinds that are defending w/ total garbage, and they still open raise on the button 2.5x. Go to 3.5x or even 4! Adjust to your table... and think.