$2 NLHE 6-max: Bet sizing on the flop in 4-bet pot?

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braun_kan

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Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 5 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: $2.05 (103 bb)
CO: $2.55 (128 bb)
BU: $8.15 (408 bb)
SB: $1.20 (60 bb)
BB (Hero): $2.29 (115 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is BB with Q Q
UTG raises to $0.07, CO 3-bets to $0.28, 2 players fold, Hero 4-bets to $0.56, 1 fold, CO calls $0.28

Flop: ($1.20) 8 9 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $0.30, CO calls $0.30

Turn: ($1.80) A (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.45, BB (Hero) folds

Villain Stats: 23/15 AF: 1 3Bet: 3 (164 hands)

On the flop I was going for value against AK, TT and JJ but now I think I was giving him way too good of a price. On this wet of a board should I have gone half pot? Or even a jam to get value from AdKd and TT?
 
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Recreationalplayer

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2x cold 4-bet OOP seems on a smaller size..
I prefer 2.5 - 3x 4-bet size OOP with my entire range especially when there is so much money already in the pot..
 
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Casey55

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I don’t imagine villain has many 7’s or 8’s in his 4-bet calling range so I think we can get value from 99-JJ and Ax. I like the bet because we should have range advantage think on this flop when you consider both players ranges in this 4-bet pot ( i could be wrong)

On the turn though in theory I think the Ace is supposed to be better for your range so I think we would have more AA, AK and should have an equity advantage so can we bet here with QQ?

When you checked turn here I am wondering if villain can ever turn some PP into bluff, or be on a semi bluff with diamonds. Heros being laid pot odds of of 4:1 which means you dont need to win all that often when you call, I know it can be difficult not to give villain mostly Ax here.
 
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zuker

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Bet more on preflop (3x) and more on flop (3/4 pot). you giving him cheap cards.
 
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300HPGOD

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Not sure if you knew anything about the 3 betting villain. If they 3 bet a lot then I think any action other calling or raising small is okay. If you have no information or know they 3 bet sparingly then I think you can call and evaluate on subsequent streets, do a raise as you did, or raise 3.5x or so.

I say you can raise as you did since I think it will get the initial opener to fold a lot. This is important in the hand to get it heads up anyway with a hand that is still vulnerable in QQ. You would then also still give yourself a chance to getaway from the hand if a bad flop occurs and still keep 1010 and JJ in the hand. I also think calling in this spot is fine for the same reasons as small raising is except you will be going multi way more often which obviously then your equity decreases. I personally dont like 3x or 4x raising over the 3 bet unless you already made up you are going with the hand (which is fine but dont raise there without knowing you are staying in the hand).

As played on the flop I would discount slightly (although no where near entirely especially if you think villain is good) that villain has AA or KK. With this flop being so wet and any size bet is going to make you come pretty close to if not committed I would just go with the hand and put it in. If they have AA or KK and then they will get my chips here unless a card could come on the turn to make me consider folding (which it did). At this point betting as small as you did gives the right price for villain to draw to us and any size bet that makes them draw against the odds commits us.

On the turn as played is tough since we know the ace was a bad card for us but if we check here any thinking villain will fire at us knowing we would bet with an ace. We would not be giving a free card on that board with that size pot with an ace. Therefore when we check against a good player here (its 2NL I know) its close to just throwing our hand in the muck. I see a case for either check folding there or just ripping. If we rip we do get KK to fold if KK made it this far which I doubt villain would just call that flop but its still remotely possible. I suppose we should be folding as played on the turn but I still advocate not letting it get to the turn without an easy all in decision or its already all in.
 
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Casey55

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Bet more on preflop (3x) and more on flop (3/4 pot). you giving him cheap cards.


Correct me if Im wrong but in a 4-bet pot SPR is lower meaning you dont need to bet very big to be all in by the river meaning small bets are good in 4-bet pots. The more we bet and less we have left behind makes it difficult to have fold equity when we bet on later streets
 
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zuker

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Correct me if Im wrong but in a 4-bet pot SPR is lower meaning you dont need to bet very big to be all in by the river meaning small bets are good in 4-bet pots. The more we bet and less we have left behind makes it difficult to have fold equity when we bet on later streets


This time it is not about SPR, but pot- odds.
 
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Casey55

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This time it is not about SPR, but pot- odds.



In a 4-bet pot you can give your opponent decent pot odds because if your range is crushing theirs they still may not have enough equity to call a small bet.

Villain shouldnt have many low cards in his range, Idk if JTs calls a 4-bet or not, TT is open ended. Im not sure if QJs calls 4-bet pre-flop. Usually when you are concerned about giving your opponent good pot odds its because were afraid of giving the opponent a good price for his draws and to turn good equity, but in a situation where your range is extremely strong it would be a disaster to fold out a bunch of hands your crushing by betting larger
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
Its a very large 3-bet, and CO has been 3-betting tight, so right off the bat this looks pretty strong to me. Moreover because his 3-bet was so large, stacks are extremely awkward for 4-betting. If you jam, you are getting a poor risk-reward, and if you 4-bet small, he can jam on you with KK-AA and call in position with the rest of his range. So this is one of the rare spots, where I prefer to just cold call his 3-bet and look to play a less bloated pot out of position. This also leaves you the option to fold, if UTG comes in for the 4-bet, and CO jam.

Flop
With his 3-bet sizing and stats, I think, hands like 77-99 and suited connectors like JTs and lower are called way more often than 3-bet. So I am almost more worried about slowplayed KK-AA than him having outflopped you. The small C-bet is fine, but I could also see a case for jamming and being done. You are out of position, and a ton of turn cards are very awkward for you, including the one that came.

Turn
This is a vomit inducing card and action. Unless he is turning TT or JJ into a bluff, which I think is very unlikely, you are beat now, and his sizing literally scream "please call me I want value". So even though it sucks to fold in a huge pot to such a small bet, I think, its a good and disciplined fold.
 
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