$2 NLHE 6-max: Is this a bad shove? I had no idea what to do here

[Jamalex]

Yatahay Network - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 80 BB
BTN: 100 BB
Hero (SB): 173 BB
BB: 100 BB
UTG: 114.5 BB
MP: 84 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K:diamond: A:diamond:

fold, MP raises to 3 BB, CO calls 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB, Hero raises to 18 BB, fold, MP calls 15 BB, fold, BTN calls 15 BB

Flop: (58 BB, 3 players) Q:diamond: 6:heart: 3:club:
Hero bets 155 BB and is all-in, fold, BTN calls 82 BB and is all-in

RESULTS ARE BELOW
















































Turn: (222 BB, 2 players) 2:club:

River: (222 BB, 2 players) 2:diamond:

[spoil]BTN shows 6:diamond: 6:spade: (Full House, Sixes full of Twos)
(Pre 53%, Flop 96%, Turn 100%)
Hero shows K:diamond: A:diamond: (One Pair, Twos)
(Pre 48%, Flop 4%, Turn 0%)
BTN wins 211 BB
[/spoil]

 

[fundiver199]

I might do something like this against just one opponent. But when two people have called you preflop, I think, the play is to basically just give up with AK, when you miss the flop. Maybe from time to time they check back, and you can spike a nice little A or K on the turn.

 

[gustav197poker]

I think in micro stakes and 2NL it is necessary to make some adaptations to the game. In preflop you must analyze how sticky your table is. Since the cost of seeing a flop is relatively cheaper, it will be more difficult to steal from the callers from the blinds. Also in this case, our blind range is by definition wider than of the CO and BTN, because they are calling for the opening of a tighter position, the MP. Therefore, in their ranges there could be some strong hands, which with their calls are inducing an isolation bet. Of course they could also call with dominated hands. But the question here is how good isolation is for us and if we will actually achieve such an effect in a setting like this.
If we think our hand is strong enough, we should choose a very large magnification size here:
1) To make up for our rank disadvantage.
2) To achieve isolation.
The problem is that we have an effective 80bb stack and that conditions the SPR a lot. In addition we do not have enough evidence to make us think that we will achieve the reduction of players. For all that, I think that a push preflop would get more folds and if we think our hand is very good, trying is justified, when we are in a sticky environment.
As played we hit the flop with 2 other players. I understand your overbet, but we shouldn't do it. Simply with our hand we are eliminating the combos: AQ and KQ of diamonds, because now neither the villains nor we can have them.
That is to say, we are not achieving a profitable play, since now we unlock more suitable combos: Ace high, which work better as bluffs catcher for the villains. Ultimately we are not getting enough fold equity, with our flop overbet. And if we add to that that this is a 3-way pot, our bet becomes even more vulnerable. In these cases we must get to the showdown in the cheapest way possible.
Greetings.

 

[300HPGOD]

I dont like the post flop play no matter how many people call pre flop much less if there are more than one. The pre flop is fine but you are betting that big to get folds even though we have a hand that doesnt need folds since it plays well post flop. Not saying your sizing is bad but when you bet that large and villains still call that should say something about their hands (no I would never expected 66 to just smooth call that).

Post flop I dont like the play because when you called you are usually significantly behind and the hands you dont totally mind staying in definitely fold (not to say it is not bad when you get J10 to fold here). That leaves you with you profit 36 BBs (just using the two callers, I know there is technically more gain) when you are right and lose 155BB (your entire stack) when you are wrong. So you have to be right about 80% of the time here for this to break even over time. For that to be the case you really need Qx to fold there and both players called a big raise so if they have Qx it is most likely a AQ or KQ where they feel like they would have an overpair card blocker. Not sure they would fold that and of course you could run into a set as you did here. I just dont think this will work out for you enough of the time to show significant profit from this move unless you can get Qx to fold consistently. Its also a high variance play that will leave you wanting to punch a hole in the wall when you are wrong.

 

[Jamalex]

I honestly had no idea what to do in this spot at the time. I had BDSD and BDFD plus 2 overs and they had only a little over pot behind on the flop. I messed up the math in this spot and should have raised to 21bb at least preflop with that many people invested in the pot plus I was out of position and that little amount more would have made the flop shove just about a full pot bet. I figured I would put a ton of hands in a tough spot on this dry board. I block AQ and KQs so they don't have many combos of hands that would hit top pair let alone call. I think I would shove here with AA/KK/AQ and my only semi bluff on this board is exactly AKs. Fundiver made a good point though that it being multiway I could have checked back and just given up when I missed but as you can see we have people who will call any pair vs this huge raise preflop so everytime they miss their set they fold and any Qx I have outs against. I think I ran into the worst hand I could have here but I don't actually hate my play relooking at this especially if this is my sole bluff hand. AJs and smaller pairs I check back and give up to bets and Qx I mostly call down I assume. Maybe if I got crazy with a 54s one time but other then that AKs is my only bluff especially at a sticky table such as this one like gustav was saying. Although checking back would mean much less varience for sure.

 

[Jamalex]

I dont like the post flop play no matter how many people call pre flop much less if there are more than one. The pre flop is fine but you are betting that big to get folds even though we have a hand that doesnt need folds since it plays well post flop. Not saying your sizing is bad but when you bet that large and villains still call that should say something about their hands (no I would never expected 66 to just smooth call that).

Post flop I dont like the play because when you called you are usually significantly behind and the hands you dont totally mind staying in definitely fold (not to say it is not bad when you get J10 to fold here). That leaves you with you profit 36 BBs (just using the two callers, I know there is technically more gain) when you are right and lose 155BB (your entire stack) when you are wrong. So you have to be right about 80% of the time here for this to break even over time. For that to be the case you really need Qx to fold there and both players called a big raise so if they have Qx it is most likely a AQ or KQ where they feel like they would have an overpair card blocker. Not sure they would fold that and of course you could run into a set as you did here. I just dont think this will work out for you enough of the time to show significant profit from this move unless you can get Qx to fold consistently. Its also a high variance play that will leave you wanting to punch a hole in the wall when you are wrong.

I saw your response after my previous comment but I had a similar feeling about this hand for the most part but I believe if I'm only shoving AA/KK/AQ and AKs as I did it would be an ok move. Also I'm not sure how I would play QQ here. Possibly use that hand as a trap sometimes and others just also shove.

Also my entire stack is not at risk as preflop I had 70bb more then their effective stacks.

 

[monkey23]

in short...yes..it is a bad shove.

if you are minded to shove with AK when you don't hit the flop, then you should shove pre.

Shoving pre with AK sooted has a lot more merit than shoving a flop that you don't hit.

If 2 diamonds come...then yes...it is a good shove...you are favourite even if oppo holds pocket queens.

 

[fundiver199]

Post flop I dont like the play because when you called you are usually significantly behind and the hands you dont totally mind staying in definitely fold (not to say it is not bad when you get J10 to fold here). That leaves you with you profit 36 BBs (just using the two callers, I know there is technically more gain) when you are right and lose 155BB (your entire stack) when you are wrong. So you have to be right about 80% of the time here for this to break even over time.

This is not, how the math should be done. Once we put money in the pot, they no longer belong to us, so we are figthing for the entire pot of 58BB. Just as important Hero was not the effective stack in this hand. His jam was risking 82BB against BTN and only 66BB against MP, since MP did not start with a full stack. So against MP Hero was getting almost 2:1 on his jam.

That being said I still dont like it, because its a 3-way pot. The simply fact, we are against two opponents, makes it more likely, that someone either hit the Q or wont fold their pocket pair, so this will not get through as often as, if we were against only one opponent. And we dont need to run into a set to be in bad shape. Its very likely, someone could have AQ or KQ in a 3-bet pot, and against those hands we only have 3 direct outs.