$2 NLHE 6-max: 4-bet pot with KK, are we folding here?

C

Casey55

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 30, 2020
Total posts
340
Chips
0
Villain is an unknown I just sat down a few hands before this.

4-bet pot we are Pre-flop aggressor. on the flop I choose to check because KK is marginal on A-high board and we would be in bad shape if called and we would rather keep pot control. On the turn villain bets pot. I am not sure if villain is doing this to attack my checking range or because he has a big hand, to me it doesnt make sense for a big hand to bet pot on such a dry board and thought maybe villain is turning a hand like QQ,JJ,TT into a bluff trying to rep the A. I am ahead of his PP turned bluff but behind to any ace however a 2nd ace on the turn does make it more difficult for villain to hold an Ace and what does he expect Hero to call with here on the turn for a pot sized bet if he does hold an ace?

I was very confused here and was started thinking about MDF because I don't know villain, if villain bets pot on the turn our MDF is like 50% meaning I have to defend half my range and I thought KK was definitely in that defending range. River was a blank and villain jams. The pot is 4.50 and 1.50 to call so I'm getting 3:1 I feel like if he turning his weaker PP into bluff I have to call. What do you think about the hand ?


pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 5 players
Hand delivered by Upswing Poker

UTG: $3.38 (169 bb)
CO (Hero): $5.90 (295 bb)
BU: $2.00 (100 bb)
SB: $2.39 (120 bb)
BB: $3.03 (152 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03) Hero is CO with K K
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.06, 2 players fold, BB 3-bets to $0.18, Hero 4-bets to $0.50, BB calls $0.32

Flop: ($1.01) 7 2 A (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.01) A (2 players)
BB bets $0.97, Hero calls $0.97

River: ($2.95) 4 (2 players)
BB bets $1.56 (all-in), Hero calls $1.56
 
Jblocher1

Jblocher1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Total posts
2,645
Chips
0
This is an interesting spot. Before we get to the actual decision point here we should consider the flop decision a bit too. We are going to have a range advantage on this dry uncoordinated board as the 4 bettor. For that reason we should consider a small cbet (1/3 pot) with our entire range here. Even though this is a bad flop for our exact holding, its not a bad flop for our entire range so a bet makes sense in position. Betting also has the additional benefit of almost always generating a check in flow from villain on turn which will allow us to see rivers for free when we do get called on flop. It is ok to check QQ/KK here but only if we also check our AA/AK for protection, if you want to cbet those hands then we should mostly be leaning towards a range bet, but if we want to have a checking strategy on flop with our KK/QQ then we also need to mix checks with our AA/AK. In these situations, I personally prefer to opt for the range bet because it is simpler and we don't need to worry about the exact frequencies at which we want to mix in checks with AK/AA.

How we are approaching the flop determines how we need to approach the turn and river from a GTO perspective. If we are playing our range as a check on flop and not cbetting AA/AK, then that means we have better hands to continue to river with and KK can become a fold on river. If, however, we are generally betting our AA/AK/AQs on flop then KK becomes the top of our range and we are going to need to call down on this runout because if we don't call then that means we have no calls, which is never a good situation because it allows villain to exploitatively jam his range on the river and we will never be able to call. So how we play flop determines where exactly KK is in our range which determines what we need to do on river. Once we check back flop we are simply not going to be able to fold turn so if there is a moment to fold it's going to be the river. But in these moments we need to honestly reflect on our flop strategies and how we are constructing our range on the flop.

This is 2NL and villain is definitely not thinking about range construction, or theory, or really probably anything for that matter, and so my analysis may not be entirely useful to solving this spot (which is probably a definite exploitative fold on river because villain will have Ax here like every time) but it is still valuable to think about these concepts and understand how our flop range construction impacts how we need to approach later streets.
 
C

Casey55

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 30, 2020
Total posts
340
Chips
0
This is an interesting spot. Before we get to the actual decision point here we should consider the flop decision a bit too. We are going to have a range advantage on this dry uncoordinated board as the 4 bettor. For that reason we should consider a small cbet (1/3 pot) with our entire range here. Even though this is a bad flop for our exact holding, its not a bad flop for our entire range so a bet makes sense in position. Betting also has the additional benefit of almost always generating a check in flow from villain on turn which will allow us to see rivers for free when we do get called on flop. It is ok to check QQ/KK here but only if we also check our AA/AK for protection, if you want to cbet those hands then we should mostly be leaning towards a range bet, but if we want to have a checking strategy on flop with our KK/QQ then we also need to mix checks with our AA/AK. In these situations, I personally prefer to opt for the range bet because it is simpler and we don't need to worry about the exact frequencies at which we want to mix in checks with AK/AA.

How we are approaching the flop determines how we need to approach the turn and river from a GTO perspective. If we are playing our range as a check on flop and not cbetting AA/AK, then that means we have better hands to continue to river with and KK can become a fold on river. If, however, we are generally betting our AA/AK/AQs on flop then KK becomes the top of our range and we are going to need to call down on this runout because if we don't call then that means we have no calls, which is never a good situation because it allows villain to exploitatively jam his range on the river and we will never be able to call. So how we play flop determines where exactly KK is in our range which determines what we need to do on river. Once we check back flop we are simply not going to be able to fold turn so if there is a moment to fold it's going to be the river. But in these moments we need to honestly reflect on our flop strategies and how we are constructing our range on the flop.

This is 2NL and villain is definitely not thinking about range construction, or theory, or really probably anything for that matter, and so my analysis may not be entirely useful to solving this spot (which is probably a definite exploitative fold on river because villain will have Ax here like every time) but it is still valuable to think about these concepts and understand how our flop range construction impacts how we need to approach later streets.

I agree I should have bet range on the flop, I am having a difficult time betting range lately as I am unsure how to handle it on the turn after the small flop bet is called, by the turn the pot becomes a decent size and its like an inner battle between continuing to represent a strong range or to play my actual hand. if I play my actual hand I am unbalanced but I don't think villains at 2nl are really taking my range into account or thinking too deeply. If I do try to play by my range I feel I am running multi-street bluffs to often when my semi-bluffs are not improving. any tips or advice on how to deal with this would be appreciated
 
Jblocher1

Jblocher1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Total posts
2,645
Chips
0
I agree I should have bet range on the flop, I am having a difficult time betting range lately as I am unsure how to handle it on the turn after the small flop bet is called, by the turn the pot becomes a decent size and its like an inner battle between continuing to represent a strong range or to play my actual hand. if I play my actual hand I am unbalanced but I don't think villains at 2nl are really taking my range into account or thinking too deeply. If I do try to play by my range I feel I am running multi-street bluffs to often when my semi-bluffs are not improving. any tips or advice on how to deal with this would be appreciated


Your overall gameplan at 2NL should be very simple, pile in money with the best of it and don't pile in money without the best of it. GTO doesn't really have a place at the micros and the goal should be strong exploitative play. You don't need to worry too much about balance because like you said, these players are not thinking about or considering whether you are balanced or not. They are playing their cards. For this reason, your exact hand becomes more important than your range. In spots like this we should still range bet, but our decision to bet or not bet on turn/river should primarily be:

1. If I bet turn, will my opponent be able to continue with worse?
2. If not, do I expect my bet will generate enough folds as a bluff?
3. If I have value, and my opponent is able to call a range bet on flop, do I expect that I'll be able to extract more value on the river?

In this exact spot, when we range bet the flop, we would absolutely never fire this turn unless it was a K. KK becomes a tremendous river bluff catcher after we check back turn. It would be odd if we bet flop and then continued betting on this turn with KK because its unlikely that villain would continue worse than Ax, maybe we get crying calls from QQ or JJ sometimes but a lot of those hands will fold to double barrels. But when we check back turn, it increases the likelihood that villain will fire those hands for value on river or at least call a bet. So when recheck back turn we give ourselves a few ways to make money. We can make money by:

1. inducing a bluff out of villain on river
2. Inducing villain to call a bet when he checks and we fire river.

KK would be at most a 2 street value hand on this texture and I've found it usually makes more sense to seek that value on flop + river on these drier textures as opposed to flop + turn.
 
G

gustav197poker

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
May 2, 2019
Total posts
1,292
Awards
1
Chips
110
Being effective at 150 bb you could bet on the flop to define the sequence a bit. If you want to check on these boards, you could transmit weakness in your range, which generates more desire to bet on a blind villain who has no position and wants to take over the pot as soon as possible. So the bet that V makes on the turn does not seem strange to me. And he has reasons to choose a larger size.
1) First of all when he has a bluff he can represent a very strong hand.
2) When betting semi pot bet, he can use all possible Axs combinations, since his range is more wide in the blind position and your range is not perceived extremely strong when you check the flop.
On the river how it was played I agree with fold, when no info on villain. In this case, we are opening up more space for exploitative play, when we don't make a continuation bet on the flop.
Assuming we bet that flop and receive a raise, in that hypothetical case, we could defend better than a double barrel, because we have position to slow down the action from the turn, place a block bet on the river, etc.
Greetings.
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
Clearly based on the bet sizing, your opponent is a fish, which makes the river more difficult since the odds are reasonable. 150 bbs deep though. w/o info, you can probably fold the river, but it's close. I'm guessing he didn't have anything, but in the long run, I don't think most 2nl opponents will barrel like this in a 4 bet pot w/o something.

As far as the flop though, it should be a range bet. 1/3 - 1/4 pot.
 
magister1

magister1

Rock Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Jun 17, 2021
Total posts
222
Chips
0
Tough spot since you didn't bet the flop.

As is, I'd fold river vs an unknown in NL2. People aren't barreling that hard with trash often enough to make it worth calling considering you have zero information.
 
3

300HPGOD

Legend
Platinum Level
Joined
Feb 13, 2018
Total posts
1,466
Awards
11
Chips
117
Unless you are 4 betting with any real frequency most villains when they are up against a 4 bet will be thinking QQ+ and a potential AK. I dont know what level villain is at but lets say for the sake of argument they believe this. Then they 3 bet us which puts their range Ax and larger pairs for the most part (Not of course all their range but a large portion of it).

When the flop comes Ace high with it being dry as can be and we check villain still has the same thoughts on our range here as pre flop as sometimes players will check a set of aces of here. The key here is to know that villain knows almost what we have (again assuming they are competent which you cant at 2 NL but lets just say they are for the point of this post). If we bet here on the flop as we should have then villain has to make a tough decision as AA would bet here and also the other hands we could have are still probably beating villain unless they have an ace. So it comes down to most of the time if villain has Ax they will call here if not they will fold. So I recommend betting small here on the flop and find out now if they have an ace. Something in the neighborhood of 40 cents which is a down bet but I think it will be effective in what we are trying to accomplish. To me with this flop, we are not going to get multiple streets of value from something worse so we should just bet and take it down if thats what it comes to rather than maybe putting ourselves in a tricky spot later. If villain calls I would be done with the hand without further improvement.

Turn is a terrible card if the villain we are playing against is thinking player. They know we have QQ, KK or AA and now AA is very unlikely and we checked the flop. Its green light for them to try and steal it here. Problem is we have no idea whether they are Ax or not so my thoughts would be do I know anything about the villain? If I know they are decent then this could be a call. If I think they are not decent or know nothing about them then this is a fold.

Just a side note I played a hand similar to this but in a tournament where I had QQ and it was 4 bet and I called. Flop was Ace high similar to this and I checked OOP and my villain checked. Right away I thought this is a chance to get KK to fold. Turn came up a blank I bet out and villain folded. Brought that up as side story that it is decently possible you could be getting bluffed here by QQ or JJ but given that we probably dont know villains thinking level we should be folding.
 
TheBigFinn

TheBigFinn

Visionary
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Total posts
586
Awards
2
Chips
0
One should not check the flop as witnessed by how the hand played out. If Hero planned to call a turn bet it is much better to C-Bet 1/3 pot on the flop. hero gets to determine the size of the bet and the hand will be defined,

If Villain calls, Hero can check behind. If Villain re-raises Hero can fold.

As played I fold the river. In a penny game it is unlikely Villain is turning a QQ into a bluff. Many more aces in a 3-bet call preflop range than hands that hero can beat.
 
R

ronn6583

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 8, 2019
Total posts
219
Chips
0
«I just sat down a few hands before this». And already managed to triple: 295 bb !!!
It looks like BB has decided to defend the blinds. His range is Ax suited, Broadway suited and 66+ pairs.
About 8-9% (100-120 hands) For example: 66 +, A9s +, A5s-A3s, KTs +, QTs +, JTs, AKo
Your re-raise showed him that your range is no worse than: JJ +, AKs, AKo
equity 36% vs.64%
He calls, narrowing his range to strong aces and leaving pairs in the hope of a set.
For example: 66+, AQs +, AKo
Equity 41% vs. 59%
The flop for him was a lucky 7 ♠ 2 ♣ A ♦ in his range of 7 made set and A top pair.
Someone catches fish with a worm and someone with a check-raise.
Without betting on the flop, you have not received any information about his possible hand. A bet of 0.2-0.3 pots could tell a lot about his hand and his attitude towards it.
Turn A ♣
Villain bets on the pot by completely tying himself to the pot. He certainly would not make such a bluff bet, since he has information about you. You've managed to triple!!! Why would he bluff? His range narrowed to AA, 77, AQs +, AKo
Equity against this range for KK is 4% versus 96%
Is it worth calling here then?
Perhaps I am greatly mistaken.
 
R

ronn6583

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 8, 2019
Total posts
219
Chips
0
Example of bluffing against KK in a 4-bet pot on NL 2
As a rule, they don't pay attention to the board at all.
They bet to the end and think that they will fold.
Call vs unreasonable aggression is effective.
https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/224U1lp0Z
2 players fold
($1.86) CO raises to $0.06
($2.23) BTN folds
($0.97) Hero folds
($2.03) BB raises to $0.22
($1.26) CO raises to $0.66
($1.59) BB calls $0.44
Flop ($1.33) 2 players
3c 5h Td
($1.59) BB checks
($0.82) CO bets $0.44
($1.15) BB calls $0.44
Turn ($2.21) 2 players
[3c 5h Td] Js
($1.15) BB checks
($0.00) CO bets $0.82 (all-in)
($0.33) BB calls $0.82
Players table their cards
16% K♣A♣ CO
84% K♥K♦ BB
River ($3.85) 2 players
[3c 5h Td Js] 6h
0% K♣A♣ CO
100% K♥K♦ BB
Final ($3.85 | rake $0.13) 2 players
CO shows high card, Ace -$1.92
BB shows a pair of Kings +$1.80
 
Last edited:
Folding in Poker
Top