$2 NLHE 6-max: 3 bet with jacks IP, get 4 bet, do we call?

[teh_colonel_saigon]

Think I'm supposed to call. Guy just had such a low 3bet%, thought we'd have to hit a set to continue.

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 160.5 BB (VPIP: 28.21, PFR: 25.64, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, hands: 42)
UTG: 108.5 BB (VPIP: 31.33, PFR: 24.10, 3Bet Preflop: 7.41, Hands: 85)
MP: 120.5 BB (VPIP: 22.68, PFR: 15.46, 3Bet Preflop: 2.38, Hands: 98)
CO: 101 BB (VPIP: 9.52, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
Hero (BTN): 100 BB
SB: 173 BB (VPIP: 24.59, PFR: 8.20, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 63)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J:spade: J:diamond:

fold, MP raises to 2.5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, MP raises to 23.5 BB, fold

MP wins 19.5 BB

 

[gustav197poker]

This villain PFR about 1 in 6 hands that are played at the table. Surely this proportion is smaller, when v is out of position, as in this case.
Actually, the answer to your question is based on the collection of accumulated ranges, which the villain had in the opening instance.
I suppose you have noticed several times, that he brought the best couples. Or maybe this sample is not being clear enough, to place us in a safe hand structure, against this particular player. (Given that JJ has no important blockers).
As you did not invest too much in this hand, the fold is an option, within all the alternatives available in preflop.
Anyway, I think your 3bet preflop as small in size. That is, it would not be a mistake to call 4bet, because you still have an adequate margin of action, to continue active with your hand. In fact, I think that the sequence you chose at the end is correct, only if you are absolutely sure, that you were below the range of the villain. Otherwise, I think that the fold in these cases of low investment is not profitable, and this can become a long-term trend of -ev, when you do not have enough readings, to make this type of decisions in the preflop.
It seems to me that you were looking for a quick fold of the villain, or perhaps a standard call (taking into account the statistics on v). Do not focus too much on statistics and play according to your hand. In this case, you had the advantage of position, and you were in an economically balanced area to make your call to 4bet.
I repeat, your decision was correct, only if you were very sure, in relation to the strength of rank v.
Regards.

 

[Aballinamion]

Medium Part of the Range

Hello teh_colonel_saigon thanks for sharing your hand and thoughts with us. We appreciate it a lot.
Now let's do like Jack the Ripper: for parts.

First I would like to look at the information available:

MP: 120.5 BB (VPIP: 22.68, PFR: 15.46, 3Bet Preflop: 2.38, Hands: 98)

First of all Villain's MP has more than 100 BB which affect our odds a little. Second his raise is a little bit strange because he is out of position in relation to the table and 2.5x raise seems like Villain's MP is maybe (a big maybe) playing some kind of Small Ball but this is just my personal speculation. Why would Villain's MP elect to give wonderful Odds either for calling or 3bet/Squeeze?
Third: How much in percentage this Villain is opening from MP? There is a great difference if he opens 20% from MP or 10% from MP.
Fourth: The amount of hands played with this Villain is really poor for a serious decision making, only 98 hands played. Also he has a very low percentage of 3bet Preflop, which leads me to the inference that he might have been even more Tighter with this 4bets. (and we know for experience that at 2 NLHE players are almost always 4betting only with AK, AA and once in a while you will find a A5s, A2s. Even KK players are reluctant to go for a 4bet Pot).

Now, to be or not to be, that's the question: Should you call it or fold it?

Well, I don't know if I agree with gustav197poker when he says that you should have made a bigger 3bet size Preflop. If you were from the Blinds I will simply apologize for raising 4x against Regulars and even more versus Whales or Fishes. But you are in the Button, the best position in the game, and usually we re-raise 3bet with a size of 3x with all of our calling/3betting Range.
It is bad to call with pocket Jacks in a spot like this because you have to pray to hit your set or a pretty good equity, which will not happen very often. The 3bet is the standard movement because here you can win the Pot immediately if the Villain in the MP folds, or you can win the Pot Postflop by C-betting, either by value or by bluff, because as long as you are the aggressor of the hand you have initiative. When you call there is only possibility of winning.
Now when I got a 4bet with the medium part of my range, versus a barely unknown Regular, which demonstrates by his Stats that he/she is unbalanced I elect to fold 100% of times. Why is that?

A) Could I really go 5bet/Shove/Push/All-in after a 4bet from the EP with the Medium Part of my Range:

for example, QQ-99, AJs-A9s, A5s-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, AQo+ (7.84%)

Sorry for my candor, but I don't think so. The reason is that if I call a 4bet with QQ, JJ, TT, I would have a serious trouble time Postflop. This hands would not play very well in a 4bet Pot. If I decide to Push and go 5bet/Shove with QQ, JJ and TT, for example, I would be in the best case scenario in a Flip Coin spot.
We cannot simply call down these hands in Position like Doug Polk does in the YouTube. Because of the rake. Because we are praying for either hit a Set or a Flop with cards below Ace and King.
We cannot apply too much pressure with QQ, JJ and TT if we are not entirely sure of how much this Villain in the MP folds to 5bet/Push. If we had this piece of information we could be easily be 5betting/Shoving with almost the entire range described above (7.84%)
When you have the Medium Part of your Range, such as QQ, JJ and TT, you are not blocking important parts of Villain's Range which may include Aces and Kings.

Final thoughts:

All of that being said, I agree with your decision of folding right on the spot.

 

[brazilpescador]

Think I'm supposed to call. Guy just had such a low 3bet%, thought we'd have to hit a set to continue.

Winning Poker Network (Yatahay) - $0.02 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 160.5 BB (VPIP: 28.21, PFR: 25.64, 3Bet Preflop: 14.29, Hands: 42)
UTG: 108.5 BB (VPIP: 31.33, PFR: 24.10, 3Bet Preflop: 7.41, Hands: 85)
MP: 120.5 BB (VPIP: 22.68, PFR: 15.46, 3Bet Preflop: 2.38, Hands: 98)
CO: 101 BB (VPIP: 9.52, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 21)
Hero (BTN): 100 BB
SB: 173 BB (VPIP: 24.59, PFR: 8.20, 3Bet Preflop: 3.23, Hands: 63)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has J♠ J♦

fold, MP raises to 2.5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, MP raises to 23.5 BB, fold

MP wins 19.5 BB

I wouldn't pay 4bet I don't know sometimes I see ghosts in my hands

 

[gustav197poker]

Hello teh_colonel_saigon thanks for sharing your hand and thoughts with us. We appreciate it a lot.
Now let's do like Jack the Ripper: for parts.

First I would like to look at the information available:

MP: 120.5 BB (VPIP: 22.68, PFR: 15.46, 3Bet Preflop: 2.38, Hands: 98)

First of all Villain's MP has more than 100 BB which affect our odds a little. Second his raise is a little bit strange because he is out of position in relation to the table and 2.5x raise seems like Villain's MP is maybe (a big maybe) playing some kind of Small Ball but this is just my personal speculation. Why would Villain's MP elect to give wonderful Odds either for calling or 3bet/Squeeze?
Third: How much in percentage this Villain is opening from MP? There is a great difference if he opens 20% from MP or 10% from MP.
Fourth: The amount of hands played with this Villain is really poor for a serious decision making, only 98 hands played. Also he has a very low percentage of 3bet Preflop, which leads me to the inference that he might have been even more Tighter with this 4bets. (and we know for experience that at 2 NLHE players are almost always 4betting only with AK, AA and once in a while you will find a A5s, A2s. Even KK players are reluctant to go for a 4bet Pot).

Now, to be or not to be, that's the question: Should you call it or fold it?

Well, I don't know if I agree with gustav197poker when he says that you should have made a bigger 3bet size Preflop. If you were from the Blinds I will simply apologize for raising 4x against Regulars and even more versus Whales or Fishes. But you are in the Button, the best position in the game, and usually we re-raise 3bet with a size of 3x with all of our calling/3betting Range.
It is bad to call with pocket Jacks in a spot like this because you have to pray to hit your set or a pretty good equity, which will not happen very often. The 3bet is the standard movement because here you can win the Pot immediately if the Villain in the MP folds, or you can win the Pot Postflop by C-betting, either by value or by bluff, because as long as you are the aggressor of the hand you have initiative. When you call there is only possibility of winning.
Now when I got a 4bet with the medium part of my range, versus a barely unknown Regular, which demonstrates by his Stats that he/she is unbalanced I elect to fold 100% of times. Why is that?

A) Could I really go 5bet/Shove/Push/All-in after a 4bet from the EP with the Medium Part of my Range:

for example, QQ-99, AJs-A9s, A5s-A2s, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, T9s, AQo+ (7.84%)

Sorry for my candor, but I don't think so. The reason is that if I call a 4bet with QQ, JJ, TT, I would have a serious trouble time Postflop. This hands would not play very well in a 4bet Pot. If I decide to Push and go 5bet/Shove with QQ, JJ and TT, for example, I would be in the best case scenario in a Flip Coin spot.
We cannot simply call down these hands in Position like Doug Polk does in the YouTube. Because of the rake. Because we are praying for either hit a Set or a Flop with cards below Ace and King.
We cannot apply too much pressure with QQ, JJ and TT if we are not entirely sure of how much this Villain in the MP folds to 5bet/Push. If we had this piece of information we could be easily be 5betting/Shoving with almost the entire range described above (7.84%)
When you have the Medium Part of your Range, such as QQ, JJ and TT, you are not blocking important parts of Villain's Range which may include Aces and Kings.

Final thoughts:

All of that being said, I agree with your decision of folding right on the spot.

It's true what you say. The Jacks play closely on a 4bet line. I also agree that 100 sample hands is a very unimportant size, for a strategic decision. My approach is profitability for cash games.
If you invest 23bb you have 77% of the remaining stack to make post flop decisions. The J range is surpassed by 40% of the high structure of the deck. So we are in an incognito situation of 60/40. On the other hand, we have approximately 2: 1 attractive to call that 4bet. If we choose a standard size, we have an acceptable margin to defend the low structure of the mallet (approximately 60% in favor).
I agree with your reasoning when there is a greater commitment to our stack. But with an investment of 20% I find it attractive to continue with the hand. It is my humble opinion. Regards Carlos.

 

[Aballinamion]

It's true what you say. The Jacks play closely on a 4bet line. I also agree that 100 sample hands is a very unimportant size, for a strategic decision. My approach is profitability for cash games.
If you invest 23bb you have 77% of the remaining stack to make post flop decisions. The J range is surpassed by 40% of the high structure of the deck. So we are in an incognito situation of 60/40. On the other hand, we have approximately 2: 1 attractive to call that 4bet. If we choose a standard size, we have an acceptable margin to defend the low structure of the mallet (approximately 60% in favor).
I agree with your reasoning when there is a greater commitment to our stack. But with an investment of 20% I find it attractive to continue with the hand. It is my humble opinion. Regards Carlos.

Thanks for your attention, now that you said it I see that is a very close spot indeed.
What I say goes only for 2NLHE and 5NLHE where players tend to overpolarize their Preflop and Postflop Ranges giving just a few margin for bluffs. In other limits this would be an easy call and sometimes and easy 5bet/Shove.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa

 

[fundiver199]

You are getting a good price and position, but when someone has a 3-bet of only 2%, even over a small sample, its not to much to assume, that a small 4-bet OOP pretty much mean aces or kings every single time. You are not deep enough to setmine in a 4-bet pot, and the reality is, its almost humanly impossible to fold JJ after the flop on safe looking boards. So if you give his 4-bet action, you often end up paying him off postflop as well.

 

[Vlad Savchenko]

Generally it's best to just fold in these spots. When you see someone who's 3-betting only 2%, it's safe to say that their 4-bet range is KK+.
Think of it like that - by re-raising only super-nutted hands your opponent basically shows you his cards. And once you see him having KK or AA, it's an easy decision. If you have odds to outdraw them - call, if you don't - fold.
Btw, this is the reason why you should be raising a wider range in his shoes - so that you either get paid with your strongest hands or take advantage of your opponents folding a ton to 4-bets by 4-betting as a bluff.

 

[0815am]

You are getting a good price and position, but when someone has a 3-bet of only 2%, even over a small sample, its not to much to assume, that a small 4-bet OOP pretty much mean aces or kings every single time. You are not deep enough to setmine in a 4-bet pot, and the reality is, its almost humanly impossible to fold JJ after the flop on safe looking boards. So if you give his 4-bet action, you often end up paying him off postflop as well.

Pretty much this. You are by far not deep enough to setmine. Also there are quite some boards where you will be very tempted to continue despite hitting a set.

I think we have to let that go. There must be way better spots.

 

[xrhstos]

I would like to add that your 3bet sizing made it very hard to call a 4bet.
Assuming that you do call, you have to hit a set on the flop or you risk stacking to their AA and KK on dry boards.
Surely you can get one street value from their AK holdings but that's only if they miss.
Generally it is not advisable folding JJ preflop, but at that spot your hand equity vs their range is almost the same as holding 55.
Would you call a 4bet with 55?
Probably not so just fold.