$2 NL HE 6-max: A difficult spot with AKo in 6-max Zoom

puzzlefish

puzzlefish

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Game
Hold'em
Game Format
No Limit
Stakes
$.01/$.02
Table Format
6-max (6 seats)
Currency
$
pokerstars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players

UTG: $3.41 (171 bb)
MP: $3.98 (199 bb)
CO: $3.08 (154 bb)
BU: $2.06 (103 bb)
SB: $4.43 (222 bb)
BB (Hero): $1.48 (74 bb)

Pre-Flop:
($0.03) Hero is BB with K A
3 players fold, BTN raises to $0.06, SB 3-bets to $0.20, Hero calls $0.18, BTN calls $0.14

Flop: ($0.60) Q T 8 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.19, SB calls $0.19, Hero calls $0.19

Turn:
($1.17) T (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($1.17) Q (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $1.67 (all-in), SB folds,

Hero?
 
puzzlefish

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I have no reads on these two opponents. This was a relatively short Zoom session and I maybe had 50-100 hands in. Play was starting to become more and more like this with very loose 3-bets being thrown around. However, I had not seen SB playing loosely.
 
blueskies

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If they are three betting loosely pre i dont mind going all in with ak preflop. As played i fold on river unless i have seen btn do these overbet shoves as bluffs or i know he for sure is a donky dink.
 
ratbat615

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I would fold what did you do? not seeing what you did.
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
This is a great spot for a cold 4-bet against someone stealing wide from BTN and someone restealing wide from SB. And if someone 5-bet jam, I would be happy to get it in for 74BB. As I side note I recommend using auto top-up in cash games, so you always start with at least 100BB.

Flop
You flopped a gutshot with two overs, and even though the overs are often not live, I think, its pretty mandatory to continue to this small sizing. Dont want to raise though, because you cant call a jam with this hand.

Turn
No point in donk betting this hand, and very happy it got checked through.

River
I am not hero calling here. Its almost full pot (even though he cover you), and BTN can definitely have a Q and play it like this. Defending preflop to the 3-bet in position, betting flop for value, checking back turn for pot control, when the T pairs. And then going for stacks, when he river top boat. This all makes perfect sense with hands like AQ, KQ, QJs etc. Even if he is bluffing, it will sometimes be with another AX, and then you are only calling for a chop. So just fold and live to fight another day.
 
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P: fine, I wouldn't 4bet because I don't think BU is opening wide, meaning:

1. BU is opening to 3x vs blinds' specific stack sizes (see #2 below).
2. SB has doubled and could be feeling frisky and we are at 74bb, which BU could interpret certain ways before cards are even dealt. I agree with fundiver199: always auto-top up to 100bb.

Also (edit), SB's 3bet sizing OOP is weird at 3.33x. SB's 3bet might be wide, but with stack dynamics I'm not going broke with AK, even for 74bb, vs a perceived stronger BU open/continue possibly stacking off range.

F: fine. BU's cbet sizing is super-weird on that multi-way super-wet flop: why isn't he scared of draws multi-way? Unless BU is just clicking buttons.

T: fine. BU's check-through is weird: I'm beginning to think he's weak.

R: fine to check again, and fine to fold vs jam.

BU jams multi-way, and doing so IP when he could've checked behind to lose small amount: both preflop 3bet and flop cbet were small sizings.

We're virtually readless and nothing made sense in this hand, especially postflop.

No need to play guessing games.
 
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fundiver199

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1. BU is opening to 3x vs blinds' specific stack sizes (see #2 below).
Maybe this has changed, but when I played cash games on PokerStars, a 3BB was very standard at 2NL and to some extend also at 5-16NL, although the higher the stakes, the more likely players were to use smaller sizing like 2,5BB. So personally I dont read anything into a 3BB open at 2NL.
 
puzzlefish

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Thanks for the comments. I intentionally left out the results because otherwise it biases the responses. I know it does bias mine for sure.

So, first of all, I know all about topping up in cash games. The reason I don't do it is because I am not a full-time cash player at this time. I leave it untopped as a means of tilt control. I have recognized it as a big issue and I am okay with the disadvantages of playing with a smaller stack sometimes.

Having said that, I am not writing any of this with any authority. It's just a learning process for me.

4betting pre-flop: this crossed my mind, as it could very well have been a resteal attempt from SB. It would also simplify the hand as I would either be facing a jam or a fold. I am not happy calling jams with AKo on Zoom games, as they are either coin flips or I have run into AA and KK. However, I can see how that can be a standard play.

Flop to River I think we all agree with checking it through and not doing anything crazy. Now at the river we diverge a bit. Fundiver finds a fold. Mktpppr goes with a fold because it's a very polarizing spot and it is a guessing game. Ratbat would fold. Blueskies folds without a better read from history.

I thought there was something in the hand and Mktpppr mentioned it:
F: fine. BU's cbet sizing is super-weird on that multi-way super-wet flop: why isn't he scared of draws multi-way? Unless BU is just clicking buttons.

T: fine. BU's check-through is weird: I'm beginning to think he's weak.

I find that the roughly 1/3 cbet is commonly used by players when they miss the flop or have a draw. The hope is others have absolutely nothing and fold. I sometimes mix it in when I do have a hand to disguise it, but it obviously carries risk with allowing better draws to complete if players come along with legit draws.

Everyone was still present on the turn, and here BTN shows what I see as weakness by checking. Sometimes higher level players will check to conceal strength, but this is so very risky on this board texture that I don't think this is what is happening here. I am fairly confident nobody has trip-T here, because that hand would want value and protection before the river.

River double-pairs the board. I don't think BTN has a Q because that hand would have wanted more value on the flop. I am sure he doesn't have 10. SB, who was strong preflop, now folds. That makes me think they may have had a draw or a weaker pair that they couldn't find the courage to call with.

I put BTN on air, some kind of a draw, or AX that doesn't contain a Q or T. I figure that most of the time I will chop here or otherwise find a bluff. Rarely, very rarely, I would expect to see any nuts like quad Q or T. But I think a lot of the time this kind of action smells more like busted draws.

So, I called, and was right this time. It was a busted clubs draw bluff, which was played even worse than I thought because that should have bet on the turn.
 
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Easiest fold in the world on the river, but sounds like calling worked out in this instance. Villains line is very consistent with AQ KQ, QJ,QT etc and there are very few bluffs, and we only chop with some of the bluffs.

I think it's a good spot to put in the cold 4bet pre also
 
puzzlefish

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I'm surprised that you don't see a lot of bluffs here, especially given the change from preflop action to the behaviour going from flop to river. Do a lot of you see it that way?
 
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gustav197poker

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In general villains will tend to bet for value on the river. Here the interesting thing for me is the size that V chooses, an overbet. From my point of view, when a villain does this in this situation it's either because he's looking to get as much value as possible, or because he expects you and the SB to fold his hands. The latter because he does not perceive them (at least you) with strong ranges. In particular you, don't represent top draws, you don't have too many TXs, etc.
If V expects to get maximum value with an overbet, there aren't enough hands in their ranges that will pay him. In fact if V thinks he can get value out of pocket pairs, which for instance he thinks you defended preflop, he should choose a smaller size.
That is the reason to think that V could try this line with a bluff.
However, this reasoning is weakened when we see that the BTN, was the opener of the hand, called a 3-bet from SB and obtained position postflop. Because on the river, it's obvious that one of the callers has value. And the texture of the board show that now many lows pairs lose in the showdown.
So the best move for V is to take advantage of his position, not risk it, and play x/x on the river, since he will get no additional value. And if he really has Qxs, should try with smaller sizes instead of overbets.
The only reason a bit crazy I can see for V to try this line is to kick you out and split the pot with the SB. But if V did it with a naked semi bluff, then he takes note of said player and classifies that he is very risky and tends to make incredibly crazy bets.
Greetings.
 
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I'm surprised that you don't see a lot of bluffs here, especially given the change from preflop action to the behaviour going from flop to river. Do a lot of you see it that way?
Honestly I can only see KJ as a logical bluff you beat. AJ is other possible bluff but you only chop. Of course I guess random nonsense is also possible like 99 but most underpairs wouldn't bet the flop
 
puzzlefish

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Honestly I can only see KJ as a logical bluff you beat. AJ is other possible bluff but you only chop. Of course I guess random nonsense is also possible like 99 but most underpairs wouldn't bet the flop
Are you thinking of how villain would play if he was a winning reg? I don't have info to support or refute that assumption, but curious as to your line of thinking when assigning something logical to a player.
 
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Are you thinking of how villain would play if he was a winning reg? I don't have info to support or refute that assumption, but curious as to your line of thinking when assigning something logical to a player.
Not necessarily winning but at least making a reasonable play that makes some sense. Of course he could be a complete whale betting anything but I would need the read to assume that. In the absence of info I would assume he has a draw or decent made hand to bet the flop
 
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Also there aren't many hands that are complete air when all the cards are mid to high ranking
 
puzzlefish

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Also there aren't many hands that are complete air when all the cards are mid to high ranking
I guess then what I am taking from this is, because there are so few bluffs in this spot, the villain made a great bluff? And I made a terrible call? Lol
 
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fundiver199

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I find that the roughly 1/3 cbet is commonly used by players when they miss the flop or have a draw.
I have mainly been playing tournaments for the past 3-4 years, and there small bet sizes are very common. But I can definitely see, how most players in a 2NL cash game would go larger, if they had a made hand like top pair. So maybe you had a good read here and used it to your advantage on the river.
The hope is others have absolutely nothing and fold.
A small flop bet can also work as a kind of reverse blocker bet. The idea being, that if the opponent just call, then they usually check the turn, and then the in position player can check back and basically get to see both the turn and river for the price of one small bet. Whereas if the in position player check back flop, they might have to call a larger turn bet or alternatively fold and give up their equity. Or the in position player can put the hammer down on the turn and force the out of position player to fold a lot of weak hands, that called on the flop due to the small sizing. Small flop bets are used a lot by solvers and are sometimes referred to as "downbetting".
Everyone was still present on the turn, and here BTN shows what I see as weakness by checking.
This one I still disagree with. The T could definitely have hit either player in the blinds, since it makes a lot of sense to not lead out with second pair in a multiway 3-bet pot but also not fold to a small bet. So top pair or even an overpair should definitely check back this turn. But of course if he dont have top pair or overpairs in his range, because he would have played them different on the earlier streets, then his check looks very much like a draw or weak made hand wanting to see the last card for free. A flopped straight or turned trips should not check back and give two opponents a free card.
So, I called, and was right this time. It was a busted clubs draw bluff,
Well done then (y)
which was played even worse than I thought because that should have bet on the turn.
With two opponents in the hand, a paired board and not much stack left behind, this is not a spot, where a draw can profitably fire the second barrel on the turn. So line wise I think, your opponent played his hand well. But the problem for him was, that he used unbalanced sizing on the flop, which you picked up on, and this allowed you to exploit him on the river.
 
puzzlefish

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This one I still disagree with. The T could definitely have hit either player in the blinds, since it makes a lot of sense to not lead out with second pair in a multiway 3-bet pot but also not fold to a small bet. So top pair or even an overpair should definitely check back this turn. But of course if he dont have top pair or overpairs in his range, because he would have played them different on the earlier streets, then his check looks very much like a draw or weak made hand wanting to see the last card for free. A flopped straight or turned trips should not check back and give two opponents a free card
Fair enough, I agree that top pair and overpairs should check on the turn here. But top pair and overpairs should have also bet harder on the flop, so I still think the check was a sign of weakness given the play on the previous street, and definitely not by a player holding a T here.
 
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fundiver199

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But top pair and overpairs should have also bet harder on the flop
Maybe not "should" as in that is the GTO solver recommended line. But maybe "would", because this is a 2NL cash game, where nobody play GTO.
 
Aballinamion

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PokerStars Zoom, Hold'em No Limit - $0.01/$0.02 - 6 players

UTG: $3.41 (171 bb)
MP: $3.98 (199 bb)
CO: $3.08 (154 bb)
BU: $2.06 (103 bb)
SB: $4.43 (222 bb)
BB (Hero): $1.48 (74 bb)

Pre-Flop:
($0.03) Hero is BB with K A
3 players fold, BTN raises to $0.06, SB 3-bets to $0.20, Hero calls $0.18, BTN calls $0.14

Flop: ($0.60) Q T 8 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $0.19, SB calls $0.19, Hero calls $0.19

Turn:
($1.17) T (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

River: ($1.17) Q (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN bets $1.67 (all-in), SB folds,

Hero?
Hero folds as long as I know. Unless you have more info about your villain. The hand was well played till the river anyway.
 
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