$2 NL HE 6-max: 4-bet bluff

[Aballinamion]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Stakes

$.01/$.02

Table Format

6-max (6 seats)

Currency

$

It comes in fold to the SB. Hero is dealt KcQs.
Hero raises to 3 BB, Villain BB 3-bets to 18 BB and Hero 4-bets to 38 BB. Effective stacks were 100 BB both for Hero and Villain.

I usually won’t do a 4-bet here using weak combos, the situation is that Villain was over 3-betting my range, and I already have folded a ton of times.
I should have moved for another table and got out of this exploitation, but I decided to level up against villain to protect my range.

What would you do in this specific scenario? Would you have folded to villain’s 3-bet or put up a 4-bet with a weaker range to protect preflop?

 

[Jarud]

I like 4 betting a hand like KQ off when ranges are wide, AJ off is another candidate that works well, we can still fold if jammed on. Although villains 3bet is huge and our 4bet is small, villian may continue with a huge chunk of his range which is not ideal.

 

[Station_Master]

It comes in fold to the SB. Hero is dealt KcQs.
Hero raises to 3 BB, Villain BB 3-bets to 18 BB and Hero 4-bets to 38 BB. Effective stacks were 100 BB both for Hero and Villain.

I usually won’t do a 4-bet here using weak combos, the situation is that Villain was over 3-betting my range, and I already have folded a ton of times.
I should have moved for another table and got out of this exploitation, but I decided to level up against villain to protect my range.

What would you do in this specific scenario? Would you have folded to villain’s 3-bet or put up a 4-bet with a weaker range to protect preflop?

Were all his 3bets to 6x? I am assuming so, but if not that will weight him towards being more polarized.

He is risking 18bb to win 4bb so you dont need to defend too often. That said, if he is overdoing it then we can defend wider including some 4bets.

The tough thing about 4betting is the size, putting in more than a 1/3rd of our stack means we are pretty much committed to call off the shove. So another option would be to take a 4bet shove or fold strategy, not loving risking 100bbs, but he will fold alot! Probably I think your play will make him fold his air, but if he shoves AK or AQ then it's a disaster as we will be severely dominated, but still getting such a good price we will have to call. Also alot of agrofish will just shove their A9o which would he bad

I think I just fold, but think your play is reasonable with decent blockers (he may assume you have finally woken up with AA or KK and overfold) If I was going to start 4bet shoving as a bluff i would rather an A blocker.

The other thing to note is if he does just call it will be hard to play when you miss the flop from out of position.

The main adjustment I would make (if not wanting to leave the table) would be to start limping from SB, and then you can develop a nice 3bet or fold strategy.

 

[Station_Master]

I like 4 betting a hand like KQ off when ranges are wide, AJ off is another candidate that works well, we can still fold if jammed on. Although villains 3bet is huge and our 4bet is small, villian may continue with a huge chunk of his range which is not ideal.

Can we fold though if we get jammed on? 62bb to potentially win 200bb (ok a little bit less after rake), so only need 31% pot odds, which we will likely have. Presumably a wide 3better will stack off with JJ, TT amongst other hands.

 

[Aballinamion]

Were all his 3bets to 6x? I am assuming so, but if not that will weight him towards being more polarized.

He is risking 18bb to win 4bb so you dont need to defend too often. That said, if he is overdoing it then we can defend wider including some 4bets.

The tough thing about 4betting is the size, putting in more than a 1/3rd of our stack means we are pretty much committed to call off the shove. So another option would be to take a 4bet shove or fold strategy, not loving risking 100bbs, but he will fold alot! Probably I think your play will make him fold his air, but if he shoves AK or AQ then it's a disaster as we will be severely dominated, but still getting such a good price we will have to call. Also alot of agrofish will just shove their A9o which would he bad

I think I just fold, but think your play is reasonable with decent blockers (he may assume you have finally woken up with AA or KK and overfold) If I was going to start 4bet shoving as a bluff i would rather an A blocker.

The other thing to note is if he does just call it will be hard to play when you miss the flop from out of position.

The main adjustment I would make (if not wanting to leave the table) would be to start limping from SB, and then you can develop a nice 3bet or fold strategy.

Sorry mate, I’ve miscalculated the 3-bet! Actually, the action ran thus: Hero raises 3x, Villain 3-bets 3x (9 BB) and Hero 4-bets to 36 BB.
I’m really sorry, writing on the cell phone makes me lose attention more than usual.
Thank you all for your replies and comments.

 

[Jarud]

Sorry mate, I’ve miscalculated the 3-bet! Actually, the action ran thus: Hero raises 3x, Villain 3-bets 3x (9 BB) and Hero 4-bets to 36 BB.
I’m really sorry, writing on the cell phone makes me lose attention more than usual.
Thank you all for your replies and comments.

If that's the case I would personally not 4bet so big as (like you said) you have little wriggle room, it will be awkward to play post flop if villian calls and you miss, and if he jams you are likely priced in.
I think we can achieve our goal of making him fold the weaker part of his range with a smaller 4bet.

 

[Station_Master]

Sorry mate, I’ve miscalculated the 3-bet! Actually, the action ran thus: Hero raises 3x, Villain 3-bets 3x (9 BB) and Hero 4-bets to 36 BB.
I’m really sorry, writing on the cell phone makes me lose attention more than usual.
Thank you all for your replies and comments.

In that case it seems like a reasonable spot to 4bet bluff, but your sizing is too big, should be more like 2.8x oop.

 

[Aballinamion]

In that case it seems like a reasonable spot to 4bet bluff, but your sizing is too big, should be more like 2.8x oop.

Man I got set this automatic corrector. Once again I repeated the same mistake, in fact I had 4-bet to 2.2x or so, I guess 20 or 23 BB, whatever

The flop came 6cAdTs, I check, Villain bets 3/4 pot and I check-raise jam: villain shows JJ.
I’m going to look forward these silly mistakes and try to pay more attention

 

[Station_Master]

Man I got set this automatic corrector. Once again I repeated the same mistake, in fact I had 4-bet to 2.2x or so, I guess 20 or 23 BB, whatever

The flop came 6cAdTs, I check, Villain bets 3/4 pot and I check-raise jam: villain shows JJ.
I’m going to look forward these silly mistakes and try to pay more attention

Not a fan of the post flop play as your line looks like a bluff, there is no urgency to get the money in the pot with AA or AK so why would you x-shove? I think the better play would be a standard 25% cbet with full range and then give up if you dont hit the straight. It's just too likely villain has an A, JJ is a hand that might even fold on the flop to a small cbet but somehow villain calls off the shove!

 

[Aballinamion]

Not a fan of the post flop play as your line looks like a bluff, there is no urgency to get the money in the pot with AA or AK so why would you x-shove? I think the better play would be a standard 25% cbet with full range and then give up if you dont hit the straight. It's just too likely villain has an A, JJ is a hand that might even fold on the flop to a small cbet but somehow villain calls off the shove!

Thank you mate. I had only one buy-in and lost my mind. I thought that either I double my buy-ins or stop playing and it was best for villain.
Now I will humbly build my bankroll playing CardsChat’s freerolls and when I get ~$ 20 dollars or so I’m back to the cash tables.

 

[Station_Master]

Thank you mate. I had only one buy-in and lost my mind. I thought that either I double my buy-ins or stop playing and it was best for villain.
Now I will humbly build my bankroll playing CardsChat’s freerolls and when I get ~$ 20 dollars or so I’m back to the cash tables.

Dont worry we all make stupid plays in the moment. I punted off a stack badly yesterday too!

 

[rastapapolos]

If villain is 3betting a lot, we can 4bet bluff more against him. Here BvB I think he will 3bet us with a lot of hands 77+, suited Aces, T9s+, so your 4bet isn't a bluff with KQoff but a value 4bet (the 4betting bluff range looks like some suited connectors 65s, some Q4s, K5s).
Once he flat our 4bet his range will be most likely 88,99,TT,JJ and some AQo AJs... as the top of his range will 5bet the majority of time.
On the flop the Ace would favor your range so you have to continue by throwing a cbet of 25-33% pot. 50-70% OTT. and Shoving river.
Here your plan is to make some Aces to fold, KK, QQ, JJ and his Bluffs. If you get action it's bad news there will be still some combos of TT, AT in his range or even 66.
Anyway don't be afraid to continue with the story that you started telling pre-flop.

 

[Highfish]

Somehow scary what pple discuss at NL 2.

 

[Station_Master]

If villain is 3betting a lot, we can 4bet bluff more against him. Here BvB I think he will 3bet us with a lot of hands 77+, suited Aces, T9s+, so your 4bet isn't a bluff with KQoff but a value 4bet (the 4betting bluff range looks like some suited connectors 65s, some Q4s, K5s).
Once he flat our 4bet his range will be most likely 88,99,TT,JJ and some AQo AJs... as the top of his range will 5bet the majority of time.
On the flop the Ace would favor your range so you have to continue by throwing a cbet of 25-33% pot. 50-70% OTT. and Shoving river.
Here your plan is to make some Aces to fold, KK, QQ, JJ and his Bluffs. If you get action it's bad news there will be still some combos of TT, AT in his range or even 66.
Anyway don't be afraid to continue with the story that you started telling pre-flop.

Does AQ and AJ ever actually fold at this SPR though? Does enough fold on the turn that calls the flop bet, KK and QQ for sure but we block those. I think it's a give up after a small flop cbet, but maybe I am too nitty!

 

[Aballinamion]

If villain is 3betting a lot, we can 4bet bluff more against him. Here BvB I think he will 3bet us with a lot of hands 77+, suited Aces, T9s+, so your 4bet isn't a bluff with KQoff but a value 4bet (the 4betting bluff range looks like some suited connectors 65s, some Q4s, K5s).
Once he flat our 4bet his range will be most likely 88,99,TT,JJ and some AQo AJs... as the top of his range will 5bet the majority of time.
On the flop the Ace would favor your range so you have to continue by throwing a cbet of 25-33% pot. 50-70% OTT. and Shoving river.
Here your plan is to make some Aces to fold, KK, QQ, JJ and his Bluffs. If you get action it's bad news there will be still some combos of TT, AT in his range or even 66.
Anyway don't be afraid to continue with the story that you started telling pre-flop.

Thanks for your valuable contribution to maintaining the cash games thread alive.
Considering it is NLHE 2, I think KQ off-suited is a semi-bluff, because at this stake players tend to 3-bet most of times with value.

 

[Aballinamion]

Does AQ and AJ ever actually fold at this SPR though? Does enough fold on the turn that calls the flop bet, KK and QQ for sure but we block those. I think it's a give up after a small flop cbet, but maybe I am too nitty!

Yes, at NLHE 2 players would hardly fold 99-JJ and ATs-AQo to a cold 4-bet. I thought villain was over 3-betting, this is the main reason I decided to put up a 4-bet holding KQo, otherwise I would have folded to his 3-bet. I got unlucky that just that time he was holding JJ, and they are sticky, even with an Ace on the flop he called the push. It is what it is.
Thank you again.

 

[rastapapolos]

Thanks for your valuable contribution to maintaining the cash games thread alive.
Considering it is NLHE 2, I think KQ off-suited is a semi-bluff, because at this stake players tend to 3-bet most of times with value.

You're welcome mate, I like discussing hands so it's a pleasure.
I think that this is a slightly diffrent in a BvB spot. They often 3-bet with value when there are still players active behind + some GTO players are balanced so they have a much wider 3bet range. Anyway the stats and the player profile are important.
In this spot villain has a high 3bet frequency, so KQ is a good condidate to 4bet and getting the information preflop.

 

[rastapapolos]

Does AQ and AJ ever actually fold at this SPR though? Does enough fold on the turn that calls the flop bet, KK and QQ for sure but we block those. I think it's a give up after a small flop cbet, but maybe I am too nitty!

I think the SPR was around 1.6, the pot was (23+23=46) so each player has 77bb left and there was still room for manoever.
I can't tell if AQ or AJ fold cause it depends on the player's profile but we have chances to mak'em fold.
KK and QQ are less likely as we block'em but still present in their range, 3 combos of each = 6 + normally their defense range must contains some value combos AA, KK, QQ to keep all our 4betting bluffs. If villain throw a 5bet Hero will fold everything except premiums and this isn't optimal for villain.
I think that you have at least to 2 barrel in those spots to win the pot, if you only bet the flop let's say around 30%. ATx is a great board for JJ, QQ, KK, AJ, AQ to continue on. If the turn is a brick and you bet again there are good chances that they fold with only 1 card to come.